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00:00:38The academic year is ending
00:00:38with pro-Palestine protests
00:00:42on university campuses across
00:00:42Ohio and the country.
00:00:45A Republican state lawmaker
00:00:45and a university professor
00:00:48share their views this
00:00:48week in the state of Ohio.
00:01:10Welcome to the state of Ohio.
00:01:12I'm Karen Kasler.
00:01:14This week, two perspectives
00:01:14on the demonstrations
00:01:17on college
00:01:17and university campuses.
00:01:19Right now.
00:01:23Ohio State
00:01:23University, Ohio
00:01:23University, Miami University,
00:01:27Case Western Reserve
00:01:27University,
00:01:29Denison University,
00:01:29and Oberlin College
00:01:31have all been sites
00:01:31for protesters
00:01:33supporting the Palestinian
00:01:33cause,
00:01:35occasionally with pro-Israel
00:01:35counter demonstrations.
00:01:39At Kent State University
00:01:39on May 4th, demonstrators
00:01:42held a pro-Palestine
00:01:42rally in the same location
00:01:45where the Ohio National Guard
00:01:47fired into a crowd of students
00:01:4754 years earlier, killing
00:01:50four of them
00:01:50and injuring nine.
00:01:52Some public officials have
00:01:52spoken out often to stress
00:01:55that students
00:01:56have the right
00:01:56to peacefully protest,
00:01:58but cannot break the law
00:01:58or policy.
00:02:01Including Republican Senator
00:02:01Jerry Cirino.
00:02:03Among the bill's
00:02:04sponsor, to Senate Bill 83,
00:02:04which would ban most
00:02:07mandatory diversity training
00:02:07in public universities.
00:02:10It would also require
00:02:11what's called
00:02:12intellectual diversity
00:02:12on topics
00:02:13spelled out
00:02:13in the legislation,
00:02:16including climate policies,
00:02:16electoral policies,
00:02:18foreign policy,
00:02:20diversity,
00:02:20equity and inclusion
00:02:21programs, immigration policy,
00:02:21marriage or abortion.
00:02:24Well, it's very disappointing.
00:02:27not because
00:02:27there are demonstrations,
00:02:28because demonstrations
00:02:28have been
00:02:30a part of campus life
00:02:30for a very, very long time.
00:02:33which was disappointing,
00:02:33is when these demonstrations
00:02:36move away from expressions
00:02:36of free speech,
00:02:40which are very allowable
00:02:40and and ought to be,
00:02:43to, violation of campus
00:02:43policies, violation
00:02:47of, of state law in some cases
00:02:47or municipal laws.
00:02:51and when it becomes
00:02:51threatening to other students,
00:02:54I mean that that is
00:02:54that is not the environment
00:02:57we're supposed
00:02:57to be having on campus.
00:02:59Everybody should feel safe
00:02:59to pursue
00:03:01their educational interests.
00:03:02And, and so many campuses
00:03:02today
00:03:05in Ohio and outside of Ohio,
00:03:05particularly,
00:03:08this is this
00:03:08is what has been happening.
00:03:10And it is antithetical
00:03:12to what should be going on
00:03:12in higher education.
00:03:15Some of those
00:03:15who were protesting in Ohio
00:03:15State recently
00:03:18said they were
00:03:18peacefully protesting,
00:03:19and law enforcement came in
00:03:21and disrupted
00:03:21an evening prayer
00:03:22that violated
00:03:22their First Amendment rights.
00:03:24They say,
00:03:24do you see it that way?
00:03:26And what if that were
00:03:26a group of Christian students
00:03:28praying or Jewish students
00:03:28praying?
00:03:30Well, look,
00:03:31I think that President Carter
00:03:31did a very good job of
00:03:35of quashing the parts
00:03:37of the demonstrations
00:03:37that were not appropriate.
00:03:39Okay. violating
00:03:39campus policies.
00:03:42I mean, why have policies
00:03:43if you're
00:03:43not going to enforce them?
00:03:45And I think that's all the
00:03:45President Carter was doing.
00:03:47and he's a very high proponent
00:03:47of free speech.
00:03:50He has said so.
00:03:51He has told me we have had
00:03:52personal conversations
00:03:52about this issue.
00:03:55so I don't doubt for a second
00:03:55that he supports
00:03:57the First Amendment
00:03:57rights of every student
00:04:00to express themselves.
00:04:02it's when they cross over that
00:04:02line in occupy
00:04:05or, take residence, via tents.
00:04:09being set up on campus
00:04:09is, is being happening
00:04:12as it's happening
00:04:12in other states.
00:04:14that's when you cross over
00:04:14the line and break policy.
00:04:17And if you violate policy,
00:04:17there should be consequences.
00:04:20There's a real debate over
00:04:20what these students
00:04:22and other demonstrators
00:04:22are saying
00:04:24and showing
00:04:24with flags and signs
00:04:26and whether that's
00:04:26really anti-Semitism.
00:04:28They say it's not,
00:04:29and that there are
00:04:29Jewish students who are,
00:04:32alongside them as well,
00:04:34who have embraced some of
00:04:34these demonstrations, too.
00:04:37Do you think some of
00:04:37these things are anti-Semitic?
00:04:40And is that something
00:04:42that should be punished,
00:04:42or is it free speech?
00:04:44Well, and again,
00:04:44someone who is, is, welcome
00:04:48to have anti-Semitic feelings
00:04:48of their own.
00:04:51I mean, we can't control
00:04:51individuals feelings.
00:04:54but when when those
00:04:54expressions,
00:04:58call for,
00:04:58for the elimination of Israel,
00:05:02for the elimination
00:05:02of Jewish students on campus,
00:05:06and any, any violation
00:05:06of rights that Jewish students
00:05:09and any other group
00:05:09would have.
00:05:11that's when there's a problem.
00:05:12And so there may be some
00:05:12people who have a, a very,
00:05:17objective
00:05:17view on the situation
00:05:19in the Middle East
00:05:19that are not anti-Semitic.
00:05:22But so much of what
00:05:22we're seeing and hearing today
00:05:25around the country,
00:05:25is clearly anti-Semitic,
00:05:29when they're calling
00:05:29for the elimination of Israel,
00:05:29when they're calling,
00:05:32you know,
00:05:32from the river to the sea.
00:05:33We all know what that means.
00:05:35and, and when they're there,
00:05:35intimidating
00:05:38students on campus,
00:05:38Jewish students on campus,
00:05:41we cannot
00:05:41we cannot countenance that.
00:05:44One of the things
00:05:45that some of
00:05:45those demonstrating
00:05:45have called for is divestment,
00:05:47the withdrawal of investment
00:05:49dollars
00:05:49from Israel or companies
00:05:51that have ties with Israel.
00:05:52And the state passed
00:05:52a law in 2016
00:05:54saying that there would not be
00:05:54divestment from Israel.
00:05:58But then that was extended
00:05:59in 2022 to public universities
00:05:59through a bill
00:06:02that you actually put
00:06:02together. Right.
00:06:04There was existing law
00:06:04that we felt was pretty,
00:06:07pretty straightforward.
00:06:08However, we weren't sure
00:06:08whether it was, specific
00:06:11enough to include institutions
00:06:11of higher learning in Ohio,
00:06:15which are state
00:06:15institutions, certainly.
00:06:17And so in Senate Bill 135,
00:06:17which I passed,
00:06:20in the last General Assembly,
00:06:22it passed
00:06:22unanimously in the House
00:06:24and with all but
00:06:24one vote in the Senate.
00:06:26So it was a very strong
00:06:26bipartisan.
00:06:29And bill,
00:06:30that covered many issues
00:06:30and that we've discussed
00:06:32in the in.
00:06:32Fact, the divestment part
00:06:33got very little attention
00:06:33when it.
00:06:35Passed because it was it.
00:06:36Well,
00:06:36we didn't have the same issue
00:06:38that we have today,
00:06:38which is bringing it up again.
00:06:40But but we wanted to make sure
00:06:41that it was crystal
00:06:41clear in 135 that the, the,
00:06:46divestment issue
00:06:46applied to institution
00:06:50of higher education
00:06:51in President Carter was was
00:06:51good enough to point that out
00:06:55in his public statement,
00:06:55a couple of weeks ago.
00:06:58and that is the law in Ohio
00:06:58and Ohio State is not free
00:07:01to divest
00:07:01of those relationships.
00:07:04But why shouldn't universities
00:07:05be able to make that decision?
00:07:07I mean, there's
00:07:07no evidence that a significant
00:07:07portion of the student body
00:07:11is opposed to Israel
00:07:11or supports
00:07:14the pro-Palestinian
00:07:14demonstration
00:07:16that's going on, but
00:07:16some portion of the student
00:07:20body does support
00:07:20the Palestinian cause.
00:07:23Why shouldn't universities
00:07:23be able to make that decision,
00:07:25if indeed
00:07:25there is a significant portion
00:07:27of the student body
00:07:27that believes that divestment
00:07:29is the right way to go?
00:07:30Well, private universities
00:07:30and colleges can do that.
00:07:33They are free to do so.
00:07:35Public institutions
00:07:35that receive taxpayer dollars,
00:07:38should follow
00:07:38and must follow Ohio law.
00:07:41And so
00:07:42they again,
00:07:43there could be groups
00:07:43of students
00:07:44who feel differently
00:07:45about that part of Ohio law
00:07:46and probably many other
00:07:46aspects of Ohio law.
00:07:49We can't leave it
00:07:49in their hands
00:07:50to revise code
00:07:50as they see fit.
00:07:53So because they're public
00:07:53institutions,
00:07:55they are bound
00:07:55by revised code.
00:07:58and there's really
00:07:58no interpretation of that.
00:08:00It's pretty straightforward.
00:08:01Why this about Israel, though?
00:08:03Why specifically divestment
00:08:03from Israel?
00:08:07Well,
00:08:07Israel is a very important
00:08:09ally of ours
00:08:09in the Middle East,
00:08:11and there's a lot of history
00:08:11to that. Okay.
00:08:13the United States,
00:08:15through the United Nations,
00:08:15was very instrumental
00:08:17in setting up
00:08:17the state of Israel postwar
00:08:17in the first place.
00:08:21and they have been
00:08:21a very steadfast,
00:08:23ally of ours in an area
00:08:25where there's really
00:08:27no other country
00:08:27that we are allied with,
00:08:29where other countries,
00:08:29neighboring countries,
00:08:32have been so focused
00:08:32on eliminating them.
00:08:35So they're not just a normal
00:08:35ally of ours.
00:08:37They're an important ally
00:08:37that has been under intense
00:08:41threat from their neighbors
00:08:41for a very, very long
00:08:44time, actually,
00:08:44from their inception.
00:08:46And so I think that's why
00:08:46we in the United States have,
00:08:49from a policy perspective,
00:08:51have gone out of our way
00:08:51to single out Israel
00:08:54as a very special
00:08:54ally of ours,
00:08:56because their circumstances
00:08:56are very special.
00:08:59When it comes to the protests.
00:09:00Senate Bill 83
00:09:01is the bill that you sponsored
00:09:01in this General Assembly
00:09:04that's moved
00:09:04through the Senate.
00:09:05It's still in a House.
00:09:07Well, it hasn't come
00:09:07to the House floor yet.
00:09:09And there's a question
00:09:09about whether it will or not.
00:09:11but I want to ask you,
00:09:12is there anything in Senate
00:09:12Bill 83
00:09:14that would address
00:09:16these kinds of protests
00:09:16that would prevent them?
00:09:18Do you think that
00:09:18there needs to be legislation
00:09:20that would address
00:09:20what we've seen happen?
00:09:21Well, I think Senate Bill 83,
00:09:21as you know,
00:09:23Karen, is is a bill that is
00:09:23is a proponent of more speech,
00:09:28not less speech, even
00:09:28though it's been accused of,
00:09:31restricting
00:09:31speech, it really does not.
00:09:34so in that sense,
00:09:34it would promote the ability
00:09:37for peaceful, orderly
00:09:37demonstrations and expressions
00:09:40of, of opinion, by students
00:09:40and faculty.
00:09:44so, and any,
00:09:44any subject can be talked
00:09:47about on college campuses
00:09:47and should be that's
00:09:49the whole purpose
00:09:50of educating our students
00:09:50on different views,
00:09:53on different subjects. Right.
00:09:55However, I do think when you
00:09:55ask about future legislation,
00:09:59I do think that
00:09:59we need to take a look at,
00:10:02you know, how we treat faculty
00:10:02who are violating policies,
00:10:07breaking the law
00:10:07in some cases,
00:10:09or who are instigating
00:10:09students to do
00:10:11either of those two things.
00:10:13I think those faculty members,
00:10:13tenured or not,
00:10:16should be terminated
00:10:16for violating policy.
00:10:20and, and I think that's
00:10:20something that I'm certainly
00:10:22going to be taking a look at,
00:10:23because I think we're seeing
00:10:23that along.
00:10:27we're seeing,
00:10:28that kind of behavior,
00:10:29around the state on
00:10:29all of our campuses right now.
00:10:33You've specifically talked
00:10:33about with me, the protesters
00:10:36and the professors
00:10:36and the faculty members
00:10:38who have been involved
00:10:38in this.
00:10:40You have said that
00:10:40you think students
00:10:42who are protesting
00:10:42don't even know where
00:10:43Gaza is
00:10:44or the historical roots of the
00:10:45Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
00:10:47And you said that you think
00:10:47they've been ginned up
00:10:49by Marxist focused and Marxist
00:10:49oriented faculty members.
00:10:53Now, the president
00:10:53of the Ohio Conference
00:10:54of American University,
00:10:56American Association
00:10:56of University Professors,
00:10:59has said that you're lashing
00:10:59out at students and faculty
00:11:01because Senate Bill 85 is not
00:11:01there.
00:11:03Senate Bill 83 is not passed.
00:11:03What is your. Response?
00:11:05I'm not lashing out
00:11:05at anybody.
00:11:07And the, the,
00:11:08AUP, doesn't historically
00:11:08like anything that I do.
00:11:12So that's not
00:11:12a surprising comment to hear.
00:11:14but look, we're trying to
00:11:14create a positive environment
00:11:18for higher education.
00:11:19I'm a huge supporter
00:11:19of higher education in Ohio.
00:11:22We need quality education.
00:11:24That means we need quality
00:11:24professors
00:11:26that are not indoctrinating
00:11:26our students.
00:11:28These professors,
00:11:28some of these professors
00:11:30and some
00:11:30some are at Ohio State,
00:11:33that are the Marxists
00:11:33professors I refer to.
00:11:36they seem to, go
00:11:36after capitalism.
00:11:39And capitalism is the root
00:11:39of all evil, right?
00:11:42They're sitting there enjoying
00:11:42their tenured positions,
00:11:45enjoying, you know,
00:11:45owning a home in Columbus
00:11:48or somewhere nearby, enjoying
00:11:48all the fruits of capitalism.
00:11:51Yet at the same time,
00:11:51they're teaching
00:11:53their students
00:11:54to to defy capitalism
00:11:54and the capitalistic approach
00:11:57in this country.
00:11:58I just find that rather
00:11:58rather rich.
00:12:01Ohio State's
00:12:01response to the protests
00:12:03has gotten some criticism.
00:12:04There's a concern
00:12:04about escalation
00:12:06of what might happen,
00:12:08especially as we just passed
00:12:08the 54th
00:12:10anniversary of the Kent State
00:12:10shootings in 1970.
00:12:12Are you concerned
00:12:12about escalation in something
00:12:15as terrible as Kent State
00:12:15happening again?
00:12:18Well,
00:12:18we certainly don't want ever
00:12:19something like that to happen.
00:12:20But I will tell you that the
00:12:20biggest danger to escalation
00:12:24by little to the demands
00:12:24is to start giving in, little
00:12:28of these students.
00:12:29That's
00:12:29that's where we've seen,
00:12:31very little payback
00:12:31for the universities
00:12:33that have given in, in
00:12:35and acquiesced
00:12:35to some of the requests.
00:12:37they've been repaid
00:12:37with more protests.
00:12:40And, and I don't think
00:12:40that's the way to go.
00:12:43I think it's like disciplining
00:12:43children, in a way.
00:12:45You give them a little bit,
00:12:45they're going to take
00:12:47a little bit
00:12:47more next time around.
00:12:48I think that the Ohio State's
00:12:50position
00:12:50was the right position,
00:12:52and I think it's going
00:12:52to cause de-escalation,
00:12:56in the long run.
00:12:57Statehouse
00:12:57Democrats have blasted Ohio
00:12:59State's response,
00:12:59calling it unnecessary force
00:13:02and noting that
00:13:03Representative Munira
00:13:03Abdullahi, an OSU graduate
00:13:06who spoke at the April 25th
00:13:06rally, was injured.
00:13:10I also spoke with Doctor
00:13:10Pranav Johnny,
00:13:12who's been critical of Senate
00:13:12Bill 83,
00:13:14as both an associate professor
00:13:14of English at Ohio State
00:13:17as well as the president
00:13:17of the American Association
00:13:20of University of Professors
00:13:20at OSU.
00:13:22He's also been
00:13:23a faculty advisor for students
00:13:23for Justice in Palestine
00:13:26for 30 years,
00:13:2620 of them at Ohio State,
00:13:29and has attended
00:13:29and spoken at protests.
00:13:32Well, first of all,
00:13:32I was immensely proud
00:13:37of how brave
00:13:37these students have been.
00:13:41to my mind, they
00:13:43express what we call the
00:13:43shared values at Ohio State.
00:13:48they are speaking up against
00:13:52the deaths.
00:13:53Let's say of over
00:13:5340,000 people now.
00:13:59I call it a genocide.
00:14:01Someone else may say
00:14:01this is not a genocide.
00:14:04I don't think we need
00:14:04to quibble on that question.
00:14:09For this purpose, I would say
00:14:09if we look at that,
00:14:12if we look at
00:14:12what's happening,
00:14:14the the current situation
00:14:14in Rafah,
00:14:17where it looks like
00:14:17an invasion is imminent
00:14:20and people are trapped,
00:14:20and we look at that situation
00:14:24and then we see
00:14:24that there are students during
00:14:26finals
00:14:26getting no gain from it,
00:14:30except the knowledge
00:14:30that they're speaking out
00:14:33when this kind of thing
00:14:33is happening in history
00:14:36and they're doing it
00:14:36in utterly peaceful ways.
00:14:39They're following the words
00:14:39of leaders like Martin
00:14:42Luther King Jr,
00:14:42who talks about nonviolent
00:14:46direct action.
00:14:48They're putting that
00:14:48into practice at that time
00:14:51to see a university
00:14:51clamp down on such students,
00:14:54dehumanize them,
00:14:54criminalize them, jail them,
00:15:00treat them like they're
00:15:00someone we should be afraid
00:15:03of, that they're outside
00:15:03agitators and all of that.
00:15:06It's extremely painful.
00:15:09And it also makes me
00:15:09extremely angry.
00:15:11And this is not
00:15:12this is not
00:15:12how we should be
00:15:12treating students
00:15:14at Ohio State or anywhere else
00:15:14in the country.
00:15:16You have people
00:15:16who are looking at
00:15:17these demonstrations saying
00:15:17something totally different.
00:15:20They think that,
00:15:20some students are feeling,
00:15:24threatened that,
00:15:26this is not a safe environment
00:15:28for some students,
00:15:28that some of these things
00:15:29and expressions
00:15:29have been anti-Semitic.
00:15:32What do you say to that?
00:15:34I think that
00:15:36to call these demonstrations
00:15:38anti-Semitic is
00:15:41is wrong.
00:15:44I think if there were
00:15:44anti-Semitism in slogans,
00:15:49in behavior and all of that,
00:15:49that would also be wrong.
00:15:53But what I'm seeing is groups
00:15:55like Jews for Justice Against
00:15:55Palestine at Ohio State,
00:15:59standing with this actually
00:16:02quite diverse group
00:16:02of pro-Palestinian protesters
00:16:07and not
00:16:08leaving the
00:16:08group, but actually speaking
00:16:11and being part of it
00:16:11and, standing their ground.
00:16:15I'm seeing people
00:16:15who have dedicated themselves
00:16:19to fighting racism, to
00:16:19fighting anti-Jewish hatred,
00:16:25to fighting these kinds
00:16:25of oppressions, right?
00:16:28Dei is our shorthand, but
00:16:28dei doesn't even get to it.
00:16:32I'm talking about
00:16:33fighting for social justice,
00:16:33fighting for racial justice.
00:16:36Those of us who have dedicated
00:16:36our lives to that,
00:16:40who have Jewish students
00:16:41in our classrooms,
00:16:41who tolerate
00:16:44all different perspectives
00:16:44in our classrooms.
00:16:47in terms of discussion,
00:16:47in terms of research topics,
00:16:51in terms of the papers,
00:16:52people, right,
00:16:52who support our students,
00:16:54regardless
00:16:54of their background,
00:16:56we would not tolerate,
00:16:56you know,
00:16:59protest
00:16:59that were simply about hate
00:17:01or about demonizing any
00:17:01particular group of people.
00:17:05So what's happening is
00:17:08a conflation of criticism of
00:17:10the state of Israel
00:17:10with anti-Semitism.
00:17:14And I'm arguing
00:17:14many people are arguing,
00:17:19Jewish Voice for Peace
00:17:19in central Ohio is arguing
00:17:22that this is a weaponization
00:17:22of anti-Semitism.
00:17:26We should be able to criticize
00:17:29the policies
00:17:29of a nation state.
00:17:33Regardless
00:17:33of some of those kinds of
00:17:36questions,
00:17:36we should be able to look at
00:17:38what a nation state is doing
00:17:40and to say,
00:17:40you know, this isn't right,
00:17:42and that's really
00:17:42what these students are doing.
00:17:44And extending
00:17:44in that criticism,
00:17:46some student groups have been
00:17:46calling for divestment,
00:17:50from Israel.
00:17:51That's against state law.
00:17:52So that's not a demand
00:17:52that can be met.
00:17:55Right? Right.
00:17:56There's many different
00:17:56layers here,
00:17:57which
00:17:57I think we need discussion on.
00:18:00The first layer is,
00:18:00is this a just state law?
00:18:04Boycotting is part
00:18:04of the diversity of thought
00:18:08that people behind SB
00:18:0883, etc., say that they're for
00:18:14boycotting,
00:18:14Russian robots at Ohio State.
00:18:18You know, it's
00:18:18something that happened.
00:18:20We divested
00:18:20from Russian robot.
00:18:22There's little food robots
00:18:22that go around campus.
00:18:25we divested
00:18:25from Russian robots
00:18:27after the Russian invasion
00:18:27of Ukraine.
00:18:29Right.
00:18:30When there's a political will,
00:18:30divestment happens.
00:18:34We divested from South Africa.
00:18:36And so this question of
00:18:36divestment in and of itself,
00:18:39first of all, I think
00:18:39the Ohio law itself is unjust
00:18:43because it restricts
00:18:44the freedom
00:18:44of speech of people
00:18:46and the diversity of thought
00:18:46of people who have a different
00:18:49point
00:18:49of view. But second of all,
00:18:52Ohio State is wrong
00:18:55when it says that since
00:18:55such a law exists,
00:18:59we can't number one,
00:18:59listen to protesters demands,
00:19:03which include opening the
00:19:03books, not simply divestment.
00:19:07We can't have a referendum
00:19:07or a student
00:19:10referendum on divestment
00:19:10in, on March 1st.
00:19:14I believe
00:19:14they hold a referendum
00:19:14in which an active vote
00:19:17was going on.
00:19:18They pulled it
00:19:18from the undergraduate
00:19:20student government ballot,
00:19:21citing, well, there's a law
00:19:21and so we can't either.
00:19:24So what's happening is
00:19:24the fact of the law
00:19:28is being used to shut down
00:19:31any genuine debate about
00:19:31the question of divestment
00:19:34with regard to Israel.
00:19:36A student
00:19:36referendum that was pulled
00:19:36is a non-binding referendum.
00:19:40It doesn't automatically mean
00:19:40Ohio State divest.
00:19:44Why can't students
00:19:44have a vote on it?
00:19:46That's repression of students
00:19:46voices
00:19:48talking
00:19:48about this protest as if,
00:19:51well,
00:19:51two sides of their mouth.
00:19:53On the one hand, they say
00:19:53content doesn't matter.
00:19:56This is about and take
00:19:56anti-camping policies,
00:20:00you know, for which
00:20:00apparently they need
00:20:01to bring out snipers, right?
00:20:03This is about anti-camping
00:20:03anti noise.
00:20:06Sometimes they say content
00:20:06doesn't matter.
00:20:09It's about policies
00:20:09being broken.
00:20:12At other times they talk about
00:20:12the content does matter.
00:20:15We can't do divestment anyway.
00:20:17So first of all
00:20:17the question is which is it.
00:20:19But second of all,
00:20:19why can't a university
00:20:22allow students
00:20:22to protest around something,
00:20:25even if it doesn't follow
00:20:25state law?
00:20:28We should be able to look
00:20:28at the matter intellectually,
00:20:31as opposed to shut down
00:20:31speech ahead of,
00:20:35you know, ahead of any
00:20:35and the actual actual study
00:20:38of what's what the questions
00:20:38are around divestment.
00:20:40What Senator
00:20:41Serino said when it comes
00:20:41to these protests, he's
00:20:45looking at the possibility
00:20:45of maybe more legislation.
00:20:47And specifically,
00:20:48he believes
00:20:48that faculty members
00:20:50who are violating
00:20:50policies are breaking the law,
00:20:52who are instigating students
00:20:52to do either of those things
00:20:56that they, tenured or not,
00:20:56should be terminated,
00:20:59and that he is certainly going
00:20:59to be taking a look at that.
00:21:02Right. As a faculty member,
00:21:02what do you think of that?
00:21:05Well, Senator
00:21:06Serino has already come
00:21:06after me in op eds
00:21:09with personal insults, saying
00:21:09that I'm an English professor
00:21:13but can't read.
00:21:15It's a racist insult.
00:21:17And he does that all the time.
00:21:20We know that he's been.
00:21:22And his whole the whole,
00:21:26political
00:21:26affiliations that he has,
00:21:29they've been about attacking
00:21:29professors all the time.
00:21:32there's that Nixon statement
00:21:32about professors
00:21:35really are the enemy.
00:21:36And this is the kind of
00:21:36attitude we have.
00:21:39What they don't know,
00:21:39they refuse to recognize
00:21:42around SB 83
00:21:42or around this issue is that
00:21:47professors are not like
00:21:47politicians.
00:21:51We don't stand there,
00:21:51give stump speeches
00:21:54that don't connect
00:21:54with people, and simply
00:21:58use our power to push through
00:21:58whatever agenda we have.
00:22:01We believe in critical
00:22:01thinking.
00:22:04We believe in opening up
00:22:04the space for dialog.
00:22:07We couldn't
00:22:07with this youth today.
00:22:10If any one thing is
00:22:10you can get by
00:22:12just by lecturing at them
00:22:12and that'll be that.
00:22:15Forget about it.
00:22:16You have to engage them.
00:22:18You have to connect
00:22:18with their thoughts,
00:22:20with their experiences.
00:22:21They want to disagree with us.
00:22:23We love it when they do.
00:22:25We actually say,
00:22:25bring the disagreements.
00:22:27Bring your critical thinking.
00:22:29You're going to be graded
00:22:30on your ability
00:22:30to think critically, etc.
00:22:33not just by
00:22:34I don't want them to vomit
00:22:34whatever I've taught them
00:22:37and said,
00:22:38I ask them to test me,
00:22:38challenge me,
00:22:40and think on their own
00:22:40two feet.
00:22:42The same goes
00:22:42with the activists.
00:22:44The same
00:22:44goes with the activists.
00:22:47Serino and other people
00:22:47want to paint professors
00:22:50as the puppeteers, you know,
00:22:50who are behind everything
00:22:53and doing everything.
00:22:55The reality is we follow
00:22:55the lead of the students,
00:22:59we support the students.
00:23:00The work we're doing
00:23:00right now.
00:23:03I'm going to be blunt
00:23:03about this.
00:23:05The work we're doing right
00:23:06now is not strategizing
00:23:06on the next action
00:23:10and telling students
00:23:10what to do.
00:23:12The work we're doing
00:23:12right now is
00:23:15you've got a criminal here,
00:23:15you've got a hearing, right?
00:23:19Do you have a lawyer?
00:23:20Do you have support?
00:23:22All over the country,
00:23:22students are leading
00:23:24professors are as individuals,
00:23:24as is our right
00:23:29supporting those positions
00:23:29if we like.
00:23:31But as professors, we're
00:23:31they're trying to help them
00:23:35as much as we can.
00:23:37We just passed the 54th
00:23:38anniversary of the Kent
00:23:38State shootings, and there's
00:23:41obviously concern
00:23:41that things could escalate.
00:23:44Senator Serino says
00:23:44one of the concerns
00:23:47he has about escalation
00:23:49is if you give in
00:23:49to demands of students
00:23:49that could lead to escalation,
00:23:53what are your thoughts when
00:23:53you think about escalation and
00:23:56God forbid, the situation
00:23:56in the terrible situation from
00:24:01Kent State or
00:24:01any others coming back? Yeah.
00:24:05The memory of the Kent State
00:24:07massacre will never leave us.
00:24:11that could have been
00:24:11Ohio State,
00:24:13because a few weeks before
00:24:15there was a massive
00:24:15demonstration on the oval
00:24:18and a tank was rolling down
00:24:18Lane Avenue.
00:24:21And out of those
00:24:21demonstrations, though,
00:24:24we got things like
00:24:24black studies departments,
00:24:26women's, gender and sexuality
00:24:26studies departments
00:24:29came as demands
00:24:29of those protesters.
00:24:33Those protesters
00:24:33did not bring the violence.
00:24:36The National Guard
00:24:36brought the violence,
00:24:39and that was ordered
00:24:39by university administrators.
00:24:43So I think that we should
00:24:47be worried about escalation
00:24:47and we should be worried
00:24:49about safety.
00:24:50The question is
00:24:50who is it coming from?
00:24:54Serino said there are enough
00:24:54Republican votes in the House
00:24:57to pass Senate Bill 83,
00:24:59which was narrowly voted out
00:24:59of committee in December.
00:25:02And he has said if it doesn't
00:25:02pass by the end of this year,
00:25:05he'll bring it back
00:25:05next session
00:25:06without concessions
00:25:06he made, such
00:25:08as dropping the ban on faculty
00:25:08strikes.
00:25:11Giannis said he'll believe
00:25:11the votes are there
00:25:13to pass Senate Bill 83
00:25:13when he sees it.
00:25:16And if it doesn't
00:25:16and is brought back,
00:25:18he says hundreds of opponents
00:25:20will once again
00:25:20come together to fight it.
00:25:23And that is it for this week
00:25:23for my colleagues
00:25:24at the Statehouse News
00:25:24Bureau of Ohio
00:25:26Public Radio and Television.
00:25:26Thanks for watching.
00:25:28Please check out our website
00:25:28at State news.org
00:25:31or find us online by searching
00:25:31the State of Ohio show,
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