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>> SUMMER HAS STARTED AT THE
00:00:41STATEHOUSE, AS LAWMAKERS LEAVE
LEGISLATIVE WORK TO HEAD HOME TO
00:00:43CAMPAIGN AND RAISE MONEY.
MONEY IS A BIG CONCERN AT THE
00:00:45OHIO DEPARTMENT OF
TRANSPORTATION.
00:00:46BUT TWO LONGTIME ODOT WATCHERS
WONDER WHETHER THERE'S A LIGHT
00:00:50AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL FOR THE
FINANCIALLY TROUBLED TRANSIT
00:00:52AGENCY.
AND AS TEA PARTY MEMBERS WORK
00:00:54ON GATHERING SIGNATURES FOR
THEIR NEXT CONSTITUTIONAL
00:00:56AMENDMENT, WE REVISIT THE DEBATE
OVER WHETHER OHIO SHOULD BECOME
00:00:59A "RIGHT TO WORK" STATE, OR IT
SHOULD REMAIN A "FAIR SHARE"
00:01:04ONE.
ALL THIS WEEK IN "THE STATE OF
00:01:06OHIO."
THINGS ARE SLOWING DOWN A BIT AT
00:01:12THE STATEHOUSE, AFTER A FLURRY
OF ACTIVITY BEFORE SUMMER BREAK.
00:01:15AND LAWMAKERS ARE NOT EXPECTED
TO RETURN TO CAPITOL SQUARE TILL
00:01:17AFTER THE FALL ELECTION, AND
SINCE THE ENTIRE OHIO HOUSE AND
00:01:19HALF OF THE OHIO SENATE ARE ON
THE BALLOT IN NOVEMBER, THERE'S
00:01:21A LOT OF CAMPAIGNING AND
FUNDRAISING TO DO.
00:01:23BUT THERE ARE STILL A LOT OF
ISSUES TO TALK ABOUT.
00:01:34ONE OF THEM HAS BEEN AROUND FOR
A WHILE, BUT HAS GOTTEN A LOT OF
00:01:36ATTENTION IN THE LAST FEW
MONTHS.
00:01:38THE STATE'S TRANSPORTATION
AGENCY IS FACING A LONG ROAD OF
00:01:41TROUBLE -- A GROWING NEED TO
BUILD AND REPAIR INFRASTRUCTURE
00:01:44WITH A DECLINING REVENUE SOURCE
IN THE GAS TAX.
00:01:47AND THERE ARE PLENTY OF VOICES
NOW SAYING THAT THE OHIO
00:01:51DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION IS
OUT OF EASY SOLUTIONS, AND THE
00:01:54ONLY ONES LEFT ARE UNPLEASANT
ONES.
00:01:57LAST WEEK I TALKED ABOUT THE
FUTURE OF ODOT WITH REP.
00:01:59REX DAMSCHRODER, A REPUBLICAN
FROM FREMONT AND THE HEAD OF
00:02:03THE HOUSE TRANSPORTATION
COMMITTEE, AND GENE KREBS, A
00:02:04FORMER STATE REPRESENTATIVE FROM
SOUTHWEST OHIO AND THE SENIOR
00:02:07THE SENIOR DIRECTOR FOR
GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS AND POLICY AT
00:02:09GREATER OHIO, A THINK TANK THAT
WORKS ON ISSUES RELATED TO
00:02:12TRANSPORTATION, GROWTH AND LAND
USE.
00:02:14HERE'S THE SECOND HALF OF OUR
CONVERSATION.
00:02:18>> WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE
PUBLIC-PRIVATE PARTNERSHIP
00:02:28THING.
HE ALSO SAYS THAT PROJECTS THAT
00:02:33COME TO ODOT NEED TO COME WITH
FUNDING IDEAS ATTACHED.
00:02:39HOW FEASIBLE IS THAT THAT PEOPLE
WILL BRING NOT ONLY A NEW
00:02:42PROJECT, BUT ALSO, HERE IS THE
FUNDING, AND HERE ARE SOME IDEAS
00:02:46TO GET THE FUNDING?
>> LET'S GO BACK 60 YEARS.
00:02:5160 YEARS AGO, WE SHOULD HAVE
DONE A TAX IMPROVEMENT FUND FOR
00:03:00ALL INTERSTATE INTERCHANGES.
A FEW DEVELOPERS GOT VERY RICH
00:03:05OFF OF PUTTING DOWN A BIG BOX
STORE AT AND INTERSTATE
00:03:09INTERCHANGE.
THAT MONEY SHOULD HAVE GONE INTO
00:03:11-- PART OF THAT SHOULD HAVE GONE
INTO THE REPAIRS AND MAINTENANCE
00:03:15FOR THE INTERCHANGE.
THE INTERCHANGE MAKE IT
00:03:17VALUABLE.
THEN THERE IS NO MONEY TO
00:03:18SUPPORT IT.
WE TRANSFERRED WEALTH TO RICH
00:03:24DEVELOPERS WHO HAPPENED TO GET
TO THE FRONT OF THE LINE TO BUY
00:03:26THE PROPERTY.
THE SAME THING APPLIES HERE.
00:03:27THE BUSINESSES WHO ARE GOING TO
OVER THE BENEFIT FROM ANY SORT
00:03:33OF A NEW TRANSPORTATION THING
-- AND WE DO THE SAME THING IN
00:03:36TRANSIT.
IT IS CALLED TRANSIT DEVELOPMENT
00:03:41FUNDING.
THERE ARE A LOT OF WAYS WE CAN
00:03:43DO THIS.
THEY'VE BEEN WORKING ON IT FOR
00:03:4740 YEARS.
THE BUGS HAVE BEEN WORKED OUT OF
00:03:49THIS.
>> LET ME ASK YOU TO WRAP THIS
00:03:51UP.
SOME PEOPLE SAW THE DELAYS THAT
00:03:56WERE WITH THAT -- GOT VERY
ANGRY, ESPECIALLY IN NORTHEAST
00:04:00OHIO, CLEVELAND, WHERE IT WILL
BE DELAYED BY 20-SOME YEARS.
00:04:06DO YOU THINK THAT ODOT AS AN
AGENCY GETS THE ANGER OF SOME OF
00:04:14THESE THINGS?
>> I THINK THEY UNDERSTAND THAT.
00:04:17PROJECTING THESE PROJECTS OUT
INTO THE FUTURE IS ABOUT AS GOOD
00:04:22A PROJECTION AS YOU GET FROM THE
WEATHERMAN.
00:04:24THERE'S NO WAY TO KNOW WHAT THE
INCOMES ARE GOING TO BE IN FIVE
00:04:28AND 10 YEARS FROM NOW.
WE'RE TALKING FIVE, 10, AND 20
00:04:32YEARS IN THE FUTURE.
EVERYONE IS A LITTLE BIT
00:04:34GUESSING HERE.
THERE ARE CLEARLY THE PROBLEMS
00:04:37THAT MR. KREBS HERE HAS
SUGGESTED.
00:04:44THOSE PROBLEMS ARE CLEARLY THE
FINANCIAL PROBLEMS.
00:04:47THERE ARE NO SIMPLE SOLUTIONS.
IF WE WANT THE QUALITY
00:04:53PRODUCTS, BECAUSE THE HIGHWAYS,
WE HAVE TO PAY FOR THEM.
00:04:55WHAT WAYS CAN WE PAY FOR THEM?
WE HAVE TO HAVE MORE DOLLARS FOR
00:05:00THAT TO HAPPEN.
THE TAXPAYERS OF OHIO, MORE THAN
00:05:04ANYTHING, WHAT VALUE FOR THEIR
DOLLAR.
00:05:07THAT'S WHAT I'M LOOKING FOR.
I'D LIKE TO MAKE SURE I HAVE
00:05:09VALUE WHEN I SPEND MY MONEY.
AS LONG AS THE STATE DOES NOT
00:05:13BLOW IT OUT THE WINDOW, I THINK
THE TAX PAYING PUBLIC WILL BE OK
00:05:15WITH IT.
>> I THINK WE CAN REASONABLY
00:05:20EXPECT YOUR FEDERAL DOLLARS.
THEY ARE NOT GOING TO RAISE THE
00:05:23FEDERAL GAS TAX.
A ANBAR WROTE $28 BILLION --
00:05:28THEY HAVE BORROWED $28 BILLION
OF YOUR FEDERAL AND INCOME TAX
00:05:36MONEY.
IF THEY EQUALIZE IT AND WE START
00:05:38SPENDING THE MONEY FROM THE FED
WE ACTUALLY TAKE IN FROM THE GAS
00:05:43TAX, YOU WILL GET LESS MONEY
FROM THE FED.
00:05:46ALL THE SETTING, THAT POWERS
MASSIVE INFRASTRUCTURE PROJECTS,
00:05:51LIKE THE BRIDGE, THE BRIDGE
HERE, THE BRIDGE IN CLEVELAND.
00:05:55THIS IS MY SUGGESTION.
THE HOUSE CRUCIAGRACIOUSLY PUT N
00:06:05THE ODOT BUDGET TO THE SENATE
TOOK IT OUT.
00:06:08DO NOT PUT PEOPLE LIKE ME --
MAKE IT YOU GUYS.
00:06:15YOU NEED TO GET DOWN THERE AND
DECIDE HOW LONG TERM YOU ARE
00:06:18GOING TO START FIXING THESE
THINGS.
00:06:20UNFORTUNATELY, I WILL TELL YOU,
IT IS WORSE THAN WHAT YOU
00:06:23BELIEVE.
IT IS WORSE THAN WHAT ANYONE IS
00:06:26TALKING ABOUT.
I'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT IT NOW
00:06:29FOR COMING UP ON SEVEN YEARS
ABOUT HOW BAD IT IS.
00:06:32I DO NOT NEED TO TELL YOU HOW
BAD IT REALLY IS PRETTY WOULD
00:06:35NEVER BELIEVE ME.
>> GENE, ONE GOOD SOURCE OF
00:06:39FUNDING THAT IS KIND OF A NEW
CONCEPT TO THE STATE IS THESE
00:06:43REST AREAS.
ANOTHER UNDER LEGALIZED --
00:06:49ANOTHER UNDERUTILIZED ASSET.
I GO PAST THE REST AREAS IN THE
00:06:55STATE OF OHIO AND WHAT DO I SEE?
A BUNCH OF TRUCKS PARKED THERE.
00:06:58NO GAS STATIONS.
NO FOOD.
00:07:00>> DON'T YOU HAVE PEOPLE AT THE
NEXT DOP THAT HAVE BUSINESSES
00:07:04AND GAS STATIONS WHO ARE OPPOSED
TO THE PRIVATIZATION?
00:07:07>> THAT WOULD BE NO DIFFERENT
THAN ON THE TURNPIKE.
00:07:11>> THIS MIGHT BE TRUE.
HOWEVER, THEY ARE UNDERUTILIZED.
00:07:14IF NOTHING ELSE, YOU GO PAST
THESE REST AREAS IN THE MIDDLE
00:07:19OF THE NIGHT, WHY DON'T THEY
TURN IT INTO A BIG PARKING LOT
00:07:24AND CHARGE THEM $10 A NIGHT TO
PARK THERE?
00:07:26I DO THINK IT IS AAN
UNDERUTILIZED ASSET.
00:07:35>> I HAVE TO COMMEND THE
DIRECTOR FOR COMING UP WITH
00:07:38THIS, BUT HE IS GOING TO HAVE TO
DO THAT EVERY SINGLE YEAR TO
00:07:41MAKE UP THE SHORTFALL.
HE HAS TO HAVE A BRILLIANT IDEA
00:07:46EVERY YEAR.
WE ARE ALREADY FOUR YEARS SHORT
00:07:48ON THIS PROGRAM.
>> BY THE WAY, WE SEND BEST
00:07:51WISHES ALONG TO GENE KREBS AS HE
DEPARTS FROM GREATER OHIO, BUT
00:07:57HE REMAINS CONCERNED.
WISHES ALONG TO GENE KREBS AS
00:08:01HE DEPARTS FROM GREATER OHIO,
BUT REMAINS COMMITTED TO HIS
00:08:02CONCERNS ABOUT TRANSPORTATION
ISSUES IN OHIO.
00:08:04THE RESULTS OF THE 2011 WEREN'T
EVEN OFFICIAL LAST YEAR, BUT TWO
00:08:05DAYS AFTER THE ELECTION, THE
PEOPLE WHO BROUGHT VOTERS ISSUE
00:08:073 -- THE SELF-TITLED OHIOANS
FOR HEALTH CARE FREEDOM
00:08:09AMENDMENT -- WERE BACK WITH
THEIR NEXT PROJECT.
00:08:11THE CONSERVATIVE 1851 CENTER FOR
CONSTITUTIONAL LAW, ALONG WITH
00:08:15THE TEA PARTY GROUP THE OHIO
LIBERTY COUNCIL, ANNOUNCED THEY
00:08:18WERE LAUNCHING A DRIVE TO GET
AN AMENDMENT ON AN UPCOMING
00:08:20BALLOT THAT WOULD BAN WORKPLACE
CONTRACTS FROM REQUIRING
00:08:22EMPLOYEES TO PAY UNION DUES OR
MAKE PARTIAL DUES PAYMENTS TO
00:08:26GET OR KEEP A JOB.
THE PETITION DRIVE GOT OFF TO A
00:08:32SLOWER START THAN INITIALLY
EXPECTED.
00:08:35A SPOKESMAN SAYS PETITIONS
STARTED BEING CIRCULATED TWO OR
00:08:37THREE MONTHS AGO, AND 2013
WOULD BE THE EARLIEST THEY WOULD
00:08:40HAVE THE NUMBER OF SIGNATURES
THEY'D NEED TO PUT WHAT THEY'RE
00:08:43CALLING BEFORE VOTERS.
BUT THERE'S CERTAINLY THE
00:08:49POSSIBILITY THAT OHIOANS COULD
VOTE ON A SO-CALLED "RIGHT TO
00:08:51WORK" MEASURE SOMETIME IN THE
NEXT FEW YEARS.
00:08:5323 STATES HAVE THESE "RIGHT TO
WORK" LAWS.
00:08:55THAT INCLUDES THE STATES IN A
CORRIDOR FROM NORTH DAKOTA TO
00:08:59TEXAS, AND THEN EVERY STATE
SOUTHERN FROM TEXAS EAST TO
00:09:02VIRGINIA, ALONG WITH SEVERAL
WESTERN STATES AND TWO
00:09:06MIDWESTERN STATES -- IOWA AND
THE MOST RECENT ONE TO ADOPT
00:09:10THESE LAWS, INDIANA.
SUPPORTERS OF THESE LAWS SAY
00:09:17IT'S ABOUT WORKERS HAVING THE
FREEDOM TO CHOOSE WHETHER THEY
00:09:19WANT TO FINANCIALLY SUPPORT A
UNION.
00:09:21BUT OPPONENTS CALL THEM "RIGHT
TO WORK FOR LESS" LAWS, AND THAT
00:09:23WAGES AND BENEFITS ARE LOWER IN
STATES WITH THOSE LAWS THAN THEY
00:09:25ARE IN WHAT THEY CALL "FAIR
SHARE" STATES.
00:09:27TWO LEADING EXPERTS IN THE
ECONOMY AND THE LABOR FORCE.
00:09:31THAT WAS BEFORE INDIANA BECAME
A RIGHT TO WORK STATE EARLIER
00:09:35THIS YEAR, BUT THE ISSUES
INVOLVED IN LAWS RELATED TO THIS
00:09:39ISSUE STILL ARE VERY RELEVANT.
DR. RICHARD VEDDER IS A
00:09:45DISTINGUISHED PROFESSOR OF
ECONOMICS AT OHIO UNIVERSITY IN
00:09:48ATHENS AND A VISITING SCHOLAR
AT THE CONSERVATIVE AMERICAN
00:09:52ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE.
AMY HANAUER IS THE FOUNDING
00:09:54EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF POLICY
MATTERS OHIO, A PROGRESSIVE
00:09:58LEANING THINK TANK THAT FOCUSES
ON LABOR ISSUES.
00:09:59>> MANY OF THE PEOPLE WHO VOTED
FOR THE HEALTH CARE FREEDOM
00:10:09AMENDMENT ARE GOING TO LOOK AT
THIS ONE, IF IT MAKES THE
00:10:12BALLOT, AND SAY, I LIKE THE IDEA
THAT PEOPLE HAVE THE FREEDOM TO
00:10:16FINANCIALLY SUPPORT A UNION.
WHAT IS YOUR ARGUMENT FOR WHY
00:10:20THIS IS NOT A GOOD IDEA?
>> YOU KNOW, IF IT'S
00:10:24GUARANTEEING SOMEONE TO THE
RIGHT TO WORK, I'D BE ALL FOR
00:10:28IT.
IT REALLY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH
00:10:30PROVIDING ANYONE WITH THE RIGHT
TO WORK.
00:10:33IT SAYS UNIONS REPRESENT
WORKERS -- JUST LIKE IF YOU TOLD
00:10:41SOMEONE THAT THEY COULD HAVE
THEIR GROCERIES FOR FREE AND
00:10:43THEY COULD PAY FOR THEM IF THEY
WANTED TO -- SOME PEOPLE, NO
00:10:47MATTER HOW MUCH THEY LIKE THE
GROCER, ARE NOT GOING TO PAY FOR
00:10:52IT.
IT IS UP REDUCING THE PAYMENTS
00:10:55TO UNIONS, WHICH MAKES IT
DIFFICULT FOR UNIONS TO GET BY.
00:10:58IT RESULTS IN LOWER LEVELS OF
UNIONIZATION, WHICH RESULTS IN
00:11:03LOWER WAGES AND LESS GOOD
WORKING CONDITIONS FOR WORKING
00:11:05PEOPLE.
>> DR. VEDDER, WE ALREADY HAVE
00:11:10THE ABILITY IN AMERICA TO NOT
JOIN A UNION, IF WE CHOOSE.
00:11:14YOU DO NOT HAVE TO JOIN A UNION.
YOU'RE IN A SHOP WHERE THERE IS
00:11:18A UNION CONTRACT, YOU DO HAVE TO
PAY DUES.
00:11:22WHY DO WE NEED THIS?
AMY JUST SAID THIS IDEA OF
00:11:27FREELOADERS COMING IN AND
SPONGING OFF WHAT THE UNION WORK
00:11:29HAS DONE.
>> THERE'S SOME DOUBT AS TO
00:11:32WHETHER THE UNIONS HAVE IN FACT
BROUGHT HIGHER WAGES AND POOR
00:11:36CONDITIONS IN MODERN TIMES.
I THINK THE EVIDENCE IS MURKY ON
00:11:42THAT POINT.
THE BROADER POINT IS, IF YOU
00:11:44COMPARE THE 22 STATES THAT YOU
MENTIONED THAT HAVE THESE RIGHT
00:11:48TO WORK LAWS WITH THE 28 OTHER
STATES, WHICH INCLUDE OHIO, AND
00:11:54YOU LOOK AT WHAT'S HAPPENED IN
THE LAST 10 OR 20 YEARS, 5
00:11:57MILLION PEOPLE IN THE LAST
DECADE MOVED FROM THE NON RIGHT-
00:12:00TO-WORK STATES INTO THE RIGHT TO
WORK STATE.
00:12:0583 FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES HAVE
MOVED FROM THE NON RIGHT-TO-
00:12:09WORK STATES TO THE RIGHT TO WORK
STATES SINCE 1984.
00:12:17THE PERCENTAGE GROWTH IN GROSS
STATE PRODUCT IS HIGHER BY QUITE
00:12:21A BIT IN THE RIGHT TO WORK
STATES THAN THE OTHER STATES.
00:12:27THERE ARE OTHER THINGS IN LIFE
BESIDES RIGHT TO WORK LAWS.
00:12:30TAXES HAVE BEEN MENTIONED.
THERE ARE A VARIETY OF THINGS.
00:12:34I DO THINK THIS PROVIDES AN
ENVIRONMENT THAT INVESTORS FEEL
00:12:38COMFORTABLE WITH.
WORKERS ARE NOT COMPELLED TO
00:12:42JOIN A UNION OR PAY DUES TO THE
UNION WHERE THEY HAVE COMPLETE
00:12:46FREEDOM OF CHOICE WITH RESPECT
TO THEIR WORKING CONTRACT.
00:12:49>> LET ME ASK YOU TO WEIGH IN ON
ALL THAT ONAMY.
00:12:53ALSO, THE 22 STATES THAT HAVE
RIGHT TO WORK LAWS IT IS 13 HAVE
00:12:59AN OBLITERATES THAT ARE LOWER
THAN THE NATIONAL AVERAGE.
00:13:01LET ME ASK YOU TO WEIGH IN ON
ALL THAT.
00:13:06>> IT IS FUNNY.
ON ALMOST EVERY ECONOMIC
00:13:09INDICATOR, IT STATES THAT I CALL
FAIR SHARE STATES ACTUALLY ARE
00:13:17DOING BETTER.
WHETHER IT IS MEDIUM INCOME,
00:13:21AVERAGE INCOME, POVERTY LEVELS
-- ON ALL OF THESE LEVELS, THE
00:13:31FAIR SHARE STATES DO BETTER THAN
THE SO-CALLED RIGHT TO WORK
00:13:34STATE.
EVEN ON THE VARIABLES RICHARD
00:13:38WANTS TO MENTION, FOUR OF THE
FIVE TOP GROWING STATES ARE FAIR
00:13:43SHARE STATES.
10 OF THE TOP 15 ARE FAIR SHARE
00:13:46STATES.
HE IS USING A VERY SELECTIVE USE
00:13:51OF THE DATA.
THE MORE APPROPRIATE WAY, I
00:13:55WOULD NEVER ARGUE THAT THE
BIGGEST DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
00:13:58MASSACHUSETTS AND MISSISSIPPI IS
WHETHER OR NOT THEY HAVE A SO-
00:14:01CALLED RIGHT TO WORK LAW.
THE DIFFERENCE IS THE LEVEL OF
00:14:06EDUCATION OF THE WORKERS, THE
INVESTMENT MASSACHUSETTS
00:14:10CITIZENS HAVE MADE IN THE
INFRASTRUCTURE, THE LEVEL OF
00:14:12PREPARATIONS, THE PROXIMITY TO
MARKETS.
00:14:14THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT REALLY
MATTER IN TERMS OF ECONOMIC
00:14:17DEVELOPMENT.
THAT SAID, I THINK THAT RIGHT TO
00:14:21WORK HAS PROVEN TO NOT BE VERY
BENEFICIAL POINT I WOULD LOVE TO
00:14:24TALK ABOUT THE CASE OF OKLAHOMA
AS AN EXAMPLE OF THAT.
00:14:27>> WHAT ABOUT OKLAHOMA IN
PARTICULAR?
00:14:30>> IT IS FUNNY BECAUSE OKLAHOMA
IS THE ONLY STATE TO PASS THE
00:14:36RIGHT TO WORK SINCE THE PASSAGE
OF NAFTA.
00:14:40I CAN SAY MORE ABOUT THAT LATER.
THE PERFORMANCE OF OKLAHOMA HAS
00:14:45REALLY BEEN OF THIS MONTH.
PRIOR TO PASSAGE OF THE SO-
00:14:48CALLED RIGHT TO WORK LAW, EVERY
YEAR FOR 10 YEARS GROWING,
00:14:53OKLAHOMA HAD GROWTH IN
MANUFACTURING EMPLOYMENT.
00:14:56PEOPLE CAME IN AND SAID IF THEY
PASSED RIGHT TO WORK, THEY WOULD
00:15:00HAVE ALL KINDS OF INCREASE TO
GROWTH.
00:15:01SINCE THE PASSAGE OF RIGHT TO
WORK, MANUFACTURING EMPLOYMENT
00:15:05HAS DECLINED EVERY YEAR.
HAS BEEN A BAD TIME FOR
00:15:07MANUFACTURING EMPLOYMENT.
THEIR UNEMPLOYMENT RATE HAS
00:15:12DOUBLED.
IT HAS GROWN RELATIVE TO
00:15:14NEIGHBORING STATES, MORE SO.
RIGHT TO WORK HAS BEEN AN
00:15:19UNMITIGATED DISASTER FOR
OKLAHOMA.
00:15:21I WOULD NOT IN FACT ARGUED THAT
BECAUSE OF RIGHT TO WORK.
00:15:23I WOULD JUST ARGUE THAT RIGHT TO
WORK HAS NOT HELPED OKLAHOMA.
00:15:27THAT'S BECAUSE RIGHT TO WORK HAS
VERY LITTLE IMPACT ON THE STATE
00:15:31ECONOMY.
>> I SUPPOSE THERE ARE EXAMPLES
00:15:33OF OTHER STATES THAT HAVE A
MUCH LOWER UNEMPLOYMENT RATE.
00:15:38NORTH DAKOTA AND ALASKA.
>> 7 OF THE 10 LOWEST
00:15:46UNEMPLOYMENT STATES ART FAIR
SHARE STATES.
00:15:48IF YOU CONTROL FOR OTHER
INDICATORS.
00:15:54, AGAIN, IF YOU DO NOT IMPLY THE
BIGGEST DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
00:15:57ARIZONA AND OHIO IS A RIGHT TO
WORK LAW, BUT IN FACT THE
00:16:02DIFFERENCE IS THE WEATHER, THE
INVESTMENT IN INFRASTRUCTURE,
00:16:07THE EDUCATION SYSTEM -- IF YOU
CONTROL FOR THAT, GENERALLY,
00:16:11FAIR SHARE STATES PERFORM BETTER
OR AT LEAST AS WELL AS SO-CALLED
00:16:14RIGHT TO WORK STATE.
>> WHAT ABOUT THIS IDEA THAT IN
00:16:19STATES WHERE THERE ARE RIGHT TO
WORK LAWS IT IS THAT YOU COULD
00:16:22HAVE WORKERS THAT ARE
FREELOADING -- LAWS, THAT YOU
00:16:27COULD HAVE WORKERS THAT ARE
FREELOADING?
00:16:30IF THERE ARE NOT UNIONS THERE TO
KIND OF CHECK THEM IN.
00:16:35>> LET'S USE OHIO AS A EXAMPLE.
LET'S NOT TALK ABOUT OKLAHOMA
00:16:43PILL LET'S TALK ABOUT OHIO.
34 YEARS AGO IN THE HEART OF
00:16:47WHEN MANUFACTURING WAS KING, WE
HAD ALMOST 1.5 MILLION PEOPLE IN
00:16:51MANUFACTURING IN OHIO.
WE HAVE LESS THAN HALF OF THAT
00:16:55TODAY.
650,000.
00:16:57WE LOST THREE-QUARTERS OF A
MILLION WORKERS FROM
00:17:00MANUFACTURING, A HIGHLY
UNIONIZED SECTOR.
00:17:01HIGH WAGES FOR MANY OF THOSE
WORKERS, YES.
00:17:07THOSE JOBS ARE GONE.
THOSE JOBS REFLECT OTHER
00:17:10COUNTRIES.
WE ARE IN A NEW WORLD.
00:17:11TO LOOK AT A STATE AND EVALUATE
ITS PERFORMANCE BASED ON THE
00:17:16NUMBER OF MANUFACTURING WORKERS,
AS AMY JUST DID WITH OKLAHOMA, I
00:17:22THINK IS A COMPLETELY SHORT-
SIGHTED APPROACH.
00:17:24THE REALITY IS, RESOURCES,
PEOPLE, BUSINESSES, ARE MOVING
00:17:30FROM THE NON RIGHT-TO-WORK
STATES TO THE RIGHT TO WORK
00:17:36STATE.
5 MILLION PEOPLE IN THE FIRST
00:17:37DECADE.
HALF A MILLION PER YEAR.
00:17:42>> IN DEFENSE OF WHAT SHE IS
SAYING, A LOT OF THOSE STATES
00:17:45ARE STATES THAT HAVE BETTER
WEATHER THAN SOME OF THE FAIR
00:17:50SHARE STATES.
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT FLORIDA.
00:17:54>> THERE ARE MANY OTHER THINGS
THAT ENTER INTO ECONOMIC
00:17:59DEVELOPMENT.
ONE THING SHE SAID THAT I
00:18:01ABSOLUTELY ALMOST HAD APOPLEXY
ON.
00:18:05I DO NOT THINK YOU WANT A PERSON
HAVING A HEART ATTACK ON YOUR
00:18:07SHOW.
IT PROBABLY IS TRUE THAT THE
00:18:10AVERAGE INCOME LEVEL IN THE SO-
CALLED NON RIGHT-TO-WORK STATES
00:18:13TODAY IS SOMEWHAT HIGHER THAN IN
THE RIGHT TO WORK STATE.
00:18:16THAT IS NOT WHAT IS IMPORTANT.
IT IS WHAT HAPPENED TO THE
00:18:21CHANGES OVER TIME IN THOSE
STATES.
00:18:22THE RIGHT TO WORK STATES INCLUDE
MANY SOUTHERN STATES.
00:18:27THE SOUTHERN STATES ARE GROWING.
GEORGIA USED TO BE WAY BEHIND
00:18:29OHIO ON PER CAPITA INCOME.
NOW GEORGIA'S PER CAPITA INCOME
00:18:36IS ALMOST THE SAME AS OHIO.
NO ONE WOULD SAY ATLANTA IS A
00:18:40LESS VIBRANT CITY THEN
CLEVELAND.
00:18:43I DO NOT KNOW ANYONE WHO WOULD
SAY THAT.
00:18:45YET, ONE HAS A RIGHT TO WORK
LAW AND ONE DOES NOT.
00:18:52YOU CAN READ THE STATISTICS ANY
WAY YOU WANT.
00:18:54I THINK THERE'S ALSO, HOWEVER,
THE ISSUE SHOES TALKING ABOUT
00:19:00FREELOADING.
THAT IMPLIES THE UNION LEADERS
00:19:05HAVE A RIGHT TO DETERMINE HOW A
PART OF A PERSON'S INCOME WILL
00:19:09BE USED.
MAYBE THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE
00:19:12PAYING INTO UNIONS ARE PEOPLE
WHO ARE PHILOSOPHICALLY OPPOSED
00:19:17TO UNIONS WHO FEEL THE UNION IS
DELIVERING LITTLE FOR THEM, ETC.
00:19:20UNIONS HAVE DIED IN THE UNITED
STATES.
00:19:28LESS THAN 10% OF AMERICANS ARE
IN A UNIONS.
00:19:33>> WHY SHOULD PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT
IN UNIONS BE WORRIED ABOUT A
00:19:38RIGHT TO WORK LAW IN OHIO?
>> THERE IS SO MUCH THEY'RE
00:19:44RICHER JUST SAID THAT I HAVE TO
ADDRESS.
00:19:46I AM NOT AT ALL SURPRISED THAT
HE DOES NOT WANT TO TALK ABOUT
00:19:53OKLAHOMA.
OKLAHOMA HAS BEEN A DISASTER FOR
00:19:54THE SO-CALLED RIGHT TO WORK
CAUSE.
00:19:56IT IS THE ONLY STATE WHERE THEY
SUCCEEDED PASSING RIGHT TO WORK
00:20:01POST-NAFTA.
IT WENT FROM A HIGH-GROWTH STATE
00:20:05IN THE LOW UNEMPLOYMENT STATE TO
HAVING ITS UNEMPLOYMENT RATE
00:20:07DOUBLED AND ITS GROWTH DECLINE.
RICHARD IS RIGHT.
00:20:12POST-NAFTA IS A VERY DIFFERENT
WORLD.
00:20:15WHAT WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE, IN
FACT, I THINK IT'S MADE IT WORSE
00:20:23FOR THE RIGHT TO WORK STATE.
NAFTA HAS SAID THAT IF FIRMS
00:20:28WANT TO COMPETE, IF STATES WANT
TO COMPETE ON THE BASIS OF LOW
00:20:30WAGES AND LOW WORKING CONDITIONS
AND LOW SKILL -- THE FIRMS CAN
00:20:40SIMPLY GO TO MEXICO OR CHINA AND
FIND CHEAPER WORKERS, LOW OR
00:20:46ER WAGES.
TO REALLY COMPETE -- BY SAYING,
00:20:56WE ARE GOING TO INVEST IN OUR
WORK FORCE.
00:20:59WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A HIGHLY
EDUCATED WORK FORCE.
00:21:01WE'RE GOING TO HAVE SOLID
INFRASTRUCTURE.
00:21:04AND PROXIMITY TO.
-- AND PROXIMITY TO MARKETS.
00:21:09THAT'S WHAT SITE SELECTION
PEOPLE SAY THEY LOOK FOR IN A
00:21:12STATE, ANYWAY.
IT'S REALLY A CASE, IN A POST-
00:21:15NAFTA WORLD, IT BECOMES EVEN
MORE MEANINGLESS AND A MUCH
00:21:21SMARTER APPROACH.
>> THE UNION IDEA MAY NOT BE
00:21:26SUPPORTED BY ALL WORKERS.
I CAN SEE WERE HIGHLY EDUCATED
00:21:30WORKERS MIGHT BE WORRIED ABOUT
A SENIORITY-BASED SYSTEM, EVEN
00:21:34THOUGH THEY HAVE A HIGHER
EDUCATION THEN OTHER WORKERS.
00:21:38WHAT ABOUT THAT?
>> THE TECHNICAL LEVELS OF
00:21:43UNIONIZATION, IF SOMEBODY'S
BIGGEST CONCERN IS THEY WANTED
00:21:45TO WORK WITH A NON UNIONIZED
FIRM, THEY HAVE PLENTY OF
00:21:49CHOICES.
AS YOU KNOW, UNIONS ARE
00:21:51DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED IN WORK
PLACES.
00:21:55WORKERS VOTE TO FORM A UNION.
THEY VOTE ON WHO THEIR UNION
00:21:58REPRESENTATIVES ARE.
IF UNIONS DO NOT WANT TO BE --
00:22:01IF WORKERS DO NOT WANT TO BE
EYEING A UNION, THEY DO NOT HAVE
00:22:04TO BE BY FEDERAL LAW.
THEY DO NOT HAVE TO PAY FOR THE
00:22:07PORTION OF DUES THAT PAYS FOR
OTHER THINGS.
00:22:10THEY DO HAVE TO PAY FOR THE
PORTION OF DUES THAT HELPS THEM
00:22:13BE REPRESENTED, JUST LIKE I'VE
GOT TO PAY FOR MY GROCERIES
00:22:18WHETHER I FEEL LIKE I HAVE MONEY
THAT WE TO DO SO OR NOT.
00:22:21THAT IS SORT OF THE WAY IT
WORKS.
00:22:24THE FACT IS, WORKERS GET
ENORMOUS BENEFITS FROM THE NINE
00:22:28UNIONS.
THEY GET HIGHER WAGES.
00:22:30THEY GET MORE HEALTH INSURANCE.
NOT ONLY THAT, EMPLOYERS ALSO
00:22:34GET GOOD BENEFITS FROM THE NINE
UNIONS.
00:22:37UNIONS ARE SOME OF THE BEST
PROVIDERS OF TRAINING.
00:22:41UNIONS FIGHT FOR BETTER TRAINED
WORKERS AND FIGHT TO COMPETE ON
00:22:46THE BASIS OF HIGH WAGE AND HIGH
SKILL.
00:22:49>> WE ONLY HAVE A COUPLE MORE
MINUTES, DR. VEDDER.
00:22:52THIS HAS BEEN TRIED IN OHIO
BEFORE.
00:22:55IT FAILED MISERABLY AND EVEN
CAUSE THE GOVERNOR HIS JOB AT
00:23:01THE TIME IN 1958.
WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THIS COULD
00:23:05BE SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE
SUPPORTED NOW?
00:23:08ISN'T THIS, SOME PEOPLE SEE IT,
JUST ANOTHER WAY TO BUST UNIONS
00:23:12AT A TIME WHEN REPUBLICANS HAVE
STRENGTH?
00:23:14>> THE STATE IS ALTOGETHER
DIFFERENT ECONOMICALLY THAN IT
00:23:19WAS IN 1958.
UNEMPLOYMENT IS LESS THAN HALF
00:23:23OF WHAT IT WAS IN 1958 DID WE
HAVE MOVED TO MORE OF A SERVICE
00:23:28INFORMATION ECONOMY.
MORE PEOPLE FEEL THEIR
00:23:30RELATIONSHIP WITH EMPLOYERS AS A
COLLEGIAL RELATIONSHIP.
00:23:36OUR TECHNICAL WORKERS,
MANAGERIAL WORKERS, THEN WAS THE
00:23:41CASE IN 1958.
THE BLUE-COLLAR WORKER IS NOT
00:23:44DEAD IN OHIO, BUT THAT CATEGORY
OF WORKERS HAS DECLINED A LOT.
00:23:48THE POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT AND
ECONOMIC ENVIRONMENT HAS
00:23:53SUBSTANTIALLY CHANGED.
>> DO YOU THINK THIS PROPOSAL
00:23:56WOULD HAVE DONE -- EXPANDED TO
ALL UNIONIZED WORKPLACE.
00:24:03>> THIS PROVISION WAS JUST VOTED
ON FOR PUBLIC-SECTOR WORKERS.
00:24:06OHIO VOTERS MADE IT VERY CLEAR
THAT THEY DISAGREE WITH THIS
00:24:09KIND OF APPROACH.
HAVING FAILED TO GETTING RID OF
00:24:13A UNION IN A COUPLE SECTORS,
THERE'S BEEN AN ATTEMPT TO HURT
00:24:17THEM IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR.
I DO NOT THINK THAT'S THE
00:24:20DIRECTION OHIO PEOPLE WANTED
THREE OHIO WANTED TO FOCUS ON
00:24:23SOLVING PROBLEMS, CREATING GOOD
JOBS, AND REVITALIZING OHIO.
00:24:28>> WOULDN'T THIS DO JUST
WHAT SENATE BILL 5 WOULD DO?
00:24:34>> I THINK THEY'RE RATHER
DIFFERENT.
00:24:39SENATE BILL 5, FOR EXAMPLE,
ASIDE FROM APPLYING ONLY TO
00:24:41PUBLIC EMPLOYEES, PUTS STRICT
RESTRICTIONS ON CERTAIN TYPES OF
00:24:47BARGAINING THAT CAN BE DONE.
THIS BILL SAYS NOTHING ABOUT
00:24:50BARGAINING.
IT SAYS NOTHING WHATSOEVER ABOUT
00:24:53THIS.
SENATE BILL 5 TALKED ABOUT
00:24:54HEALTH CARE COSTS.
SENATE BILL 5 ATTEMPTED TO PUT
00:25:00INTO LEGISLATION WHAT COLLECTIVE
BARGAINING TRIES TO DO IN A
00:25:03VOLUNTARY WAY.
I DO THINK THE APPROACHES ARE
00:25:07RATHER DIFFERENT.
>> VEDDER PREDICTED INDIANA
00:25:11WOULD BECOME A RIGHT TO WORK
STATE WITHIN THE NEXT FEW
00:25:14MONTHS, AND THE ISSUES.
IN THAT INTERVIEW IN NOVEMBER,
00:25:17VEDDER PREDICTED THAT WITHIN A
FEW MONTHS, ANOTHER STATE IN THE
00:25:19NORTHEAST PART OF THE COUNTRY
WOULD ADOPT A RIGHT TO WORK LAW.
00:25:21AND INDEED, IN FEBRUARY,
INDIANA LAWMAKERS PASSED THE
00:25:22FIRST STATEWIDE RIGHT TO WORK
LEGISLATION IN THE RUST BELT.
00:25:24IT'S THE SECOND TIME AROUND FOR
THAT LEGISLATION.
00:25:26INDIANA BECAME A RIGHT TO WORK
STATE IN 1957, BUT THAT LAW WAS
00:25:29REPEALED IN 1965.
AND THAT'S IT FOR THIS WEEK.
00:25:31FOR MY COLLEAGUES AT OHIO PUBLIC
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Note : Transcripts are compiled from uncorrected captions