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00:00:01>> SUPPORT FOR THE STATEWIDE
BROADCAST OF "THE STATE OF OHIO"
00:00:07COMES FROM THE LAWFIRM OF
PORTER, WRIGHT, MORRIS AND
00:00:09ARTHUR, LLP.
HELPING BUSINESS AND INDIVIDUAL
00:00:12S SOLVE COMPLEX LEGAL PROBLEMS
IN OHIO, ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND
00:00:16AROUND THE WORLD.
ONLINE AT PORTERWRIGHT.COM.
00:00:18AND FROM THE OHIO EDUCATION
ASSOCIATION, REPRESENTING
00:00:21120,000 MEMBERS, WHO WORK TO
INSPIRE THEIR STUDENTS TO THINK
00:00:24CREATIVELY AND EXPERIENCE THE
JOY OF LEARNING.
00:00:26ONLINE AT OHEA.COM.
>> KAREN KASLER: OHIO IS GETTING
00:00:30OLDER, LIKE THE REST OF THE
COUNTRY AND THE WORLD.
00:00:34TWO RESEARCHERS SAY THE SILVER
TSUNAMI THAT'S AHEAD COULD SINK
00:00:36THE STATE IN A MULTI-BILLION
DOLLAR DEFICIT, BUT A LOBBYING
00:00:42GROUP SAYS THERE'S MORE TO THE
STORY THAN THAT.
00:00:52AND FOR THE FIRST TIME, A MORE
COMPLETE STORY OF A GIANT OF
00:00:54OHIO POLITICS TOLD BY A TRIO OF
JOURNALISTS WHO KNEW HIM.
00:00:56ALL THIS WEEK IN "THE STATE OF
OHIO."
00:00:59[CAPTIONING PERFORMED BY THE
NATIONAL CAPTIONING INSTITUTE,
00:01:00WHICH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ITS
CAPTION CONTENT AND ACCURACY.
00:01:02VISIT NCICAP.ORG]
>> KAREN: IT'S SPRING BREAK FOR
00:01:04STATE LAWMAKERS, SO THAT GIVES
US TIME TO REVISIT SOME
00:01:06IMPORTANT ISSUES AND TOPICS.
FOR INSTANCE, OHIO'S POPULATION
00:01:08OF PEOPLE OVER 60, WHICH IS THE
SEVENTH HIGHEST IN THE NATION.
00:01:13BY 2030, THE POPULATION OF
AMERICANS OVER 65 WILL NEARLY
00:01:17DOUBLE TO 70 MILLION, AND ONE IN
FOUR AMERICANS WILL BE OVER 50
00:01:20THAT YEAR.
FIVE YEARS LATER, IN 2035, HALF
00:01:24OF OHIO'S POPULATION WILL EITHER
BE PEOPLE OVER 65 OR CHILDREN --
00:01:33AND THOSE PEOPLE DON'T EARN MUCH
MONEY OR PAY MUCH IN TAXES, BUT
00:01:36THEY DO TEND TO USE GOVERNMENT
SERVICES.
00:01:39THE COMING "SILVER TSUNAMI," AS
SOME HAVE CALLED IT, INSPIRED
00:01:40ONE OF THE STATE'S LEADING
SOCIAL SERVICES AND PUBLIC
00:01:43POLICY RESEARCH GROUPS TO LOOK
INTO ITS IMPACT ON THE STATE
00:01:47BUDGET AND SPENDING.
THE RESULT IS THIS REPORT FROM
00:01:48THE CENTER FOR COMMUNITY
SOLUTIONS, WHICH SAYS THAT BY
00:01:502035, THE GREYING OF OHIO WILL
LIKELY MEAN A NEARLY $1.2
00:01:55BILLION DECLINE IN ANNUAL STATE
INCOME TAX REVENUE COUPLED WITH
00:02:00INCREASES IN MEDICAID SPENDING
THAT WILL ADD UP TO NEARLY $680
00:02:02MILLION ANNUALLY.
IN NOVEMBER, I SPOKE WITH THE
00:02:07REPORT'S AUTHORS -- JON HONECK
FROM THE CENTER FOR COMMUNITY
00:02:10SOLUTIONS AND BILL LAFAYETTE, AN
ECONOMIST WHO'S ALSO THE FOUNDER
00:02:13OF REGIONOMICS, WHICH ANALYZES
LOCAL ECONOMIES.
00:02:19WOULD YOU CALL THIS A
CROSSROADS, JON, THAT WE ARE
00:02:23APPROACHING WITH THESE BIG
NUMBERS?
00:02:24YOU HAVE GOT HALF THE POPULATION
THAT IS NOT IN THE WORKFORCE AT
00:02:29LEAST FULL-TIME, MOST OF THEM,
THAT IS A BIG DEAL.
00:02:30JON: YEAH, I THINK IT IS AN
UNPRECEDENTED SITUATION FOR OUR
00:02:37SOCIETY.
BY 2035, WE WILL HAVE AS MANY
00:02:39SENIORS AS WE WILL KIDS, AND
THAT HAS NEVER BEEN EXPERIENCED
00:02:43BEFORE IN HUMAN HISTORY.
I THINK THE OVER 85 ISOLATION
00:02:48WILL GROW BY SEVERAL HUNDRED
THOUSAND.
00:02:49THOSE ARE THE FOLKS MOST IN NEED
OF NURSING HOME CARE AND
00:02:53CAREGIVING IN GENERAL, FROM
FAMILY MEMBERS, HOWEVER THAT IS
00:02:56TAKEN CARE OF.
AND WE CAN SORT OF SEE
00:03:02WHAT IS COMING.
THAT IS WHY WE GET THIS REPORT,
00:03:04TO GET PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT SOME
OF THESE TRENDS AND
00:03:06UNDERSTANDING, NOT TO
INDUCE PANIC, BUT WE CAN SEE
00:03:11DEMOGRAPHICALLY WHAT IS COMING
DOWN THE ROAD COME AND WE CAN
00:03:15START TO TAKE STEPS TO PREPARE.
>> KAREN: YOU ARE LOOKING 21 YEARS
00:03:19IN THE FUTURE, BUT THIS IS A BIG
BUDGET HALL, $2 MILLION WHEN YOU
00:03:21ADD UP INCREASES IN MEDICAID
SPENDING.
00:03:28WHAT BRINGS YOU TO THE
CONCLUSION, AND WILL IT REALLY
00:03:30BE AS BAD AS THAT?
JON: FIRST, LET'S PUT IT IN
00:03:35PERSPECTIVE.
WHEN WE HAD A BUDGET CRISIS A
00:03:38FEW YEARS AGO, THEY TALKED ABOUT
A $68 BILLION DEFICIT, SO IT IS
00:03:41NOT THAT BAD, BUT IT IS BAD
ENOUGH, MAYBE THE EQUIVALENT OF
00:03:44A MINOR RECESSION OR SOMETHING,
BUT IT WILL HAPPEN SLOWLY OVER
00:03:48TIME.
THE MAIN THING DRIVING THE
00:03:50INCOME TAX CHANGES ARE, AS YOU
KNOW, PEOPLE WILL RETIRE EVEN
00:03:52THOUGH PEOPLE NOW ARE WORKING
LONGER THAN THEY HAVE IN
00:03:56PREVIOUS GENERATIONS, THEY ARE
GENERALLY HEALTHIER, BUT STILL,
00:03:58AT SOME POINT THEY'RE GOING TO
LEAVE THE LABOR FORCE, AND
00:04:05LOOKING AT OUR PROJECTIONS,
LOOKING AT THE WAY THE
00:04:06POPULATION WILL CHANGE, HUNDREDS
OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WILL
00:04:09LEAVE THE LABOR FORCE AND THE
LABOR FORCE WILL ACTUALLY START
00:04:11TO SHRINK AROUND 2030, 2035, AND
THOSE PEOPLE WILL STILL HAVE
00:04:15SOME INCOME FROM SOCIAL
SECURITY, WHATEVER SAVINGS THEY
00:04:19HAVE, BUT THAT WILL AFFECT THE
INCOME TAX.
00:04:23IT WILL AFFECT THE AMOUNT OF
RESOURCES THE STATE HAS TO USE
00:04:31TO PAY FOR PUBLIC SERVICES.
>> KAREN: BELL, WANT TO BRING YOU
00:04:36INTO THE CONVERSATION, MOVING TO
SELL TAXES, -- TO SALES TAXES,
00:04:43SLOWING DOWN MEDICAID SPENDING,
AS IT POSSIBLE THAT IT WILL NOT
00:04:45BE AS BAD AS WHAT IS IN THIS
REPORT?
00:04:46>> BILL: IT COULD MAYBE NOT BE AS
BAD OR IT COULD MAYBE BE WORSE.
00:04:53THE THING ABOUT THESE
PROJECTIONS IS THAT THEY ARE
00:04:54PROJECTIONS.
IT IS BASED ON A SET OF
00:04:59ASSUMPTIONS, PARTICULARLY
REGARDING A MIGRATION INTO AND
00:05:04OUT OF OHIO THAT MAY BE BETTER
OR MAY BE WORSE.
00:05:08WE JUST -- WE REALLY DON'T KNOW.
>> KAREN: OBVIOUSLY THERE COULD BE
00:05:17CHANGES BETWEEN NOW AND THEN,
FOR EXAMPLE, IF INDEED THE STATE
00:05:21INCOME TAX IS COMPLETELY
ELIMINATED AND THERE IS MORE
00:05:23CLIENTS ON SALES TAXES, PEOPLE
IN THIS POPULATION DO SPEND TWO
00:05:28-- MORE RELIANCE ON SALES TAXES,
PEOPLE DO SPEND LESS, DO THEY
00:05:34NOT?
>> BILL: THAT IS TRUE.
00:05:38OLDER HOUSEHOLDS SPEND LESS THAN
OLDER HOUSEHOLDS, ABOUT 40% LESS
00:05:43FOR THE OLDEST HOUSEHOLDS ON
AVERAGE, AND THE FACT THAT A
00:05:45SMALLER SHARE OF THE MONEY THAT
THEY DO SPEND IS SPENT ON GOODS
00:05:50THAT ARE TAXABLE, GOODS AND
SERVICES.
00:05:54A TYPICAL HOUSEHOLD IN THE
YOUNGER AGE GROUP SPENDS ABOUT
00:05:591/3 OF THEIR INCOME ON TAXABLE
EXPENDITURES.
00:06:03FOR THESE OLDEST HOUSEHOLDS, 80
AND OLDER, IT IS ABOUT 1/4 OR
00:06:08LESS.
>> KAREN: MOVING TO THE
00:06:13HEALTH CARE COSTS, RISING HEALTH
CARE COSTS IS A RISING
00:06:19FACTOR IN DEMOGRAPHIC CHANGE.
THAT IMPLIES IS THAT SIDE OF IT
00:06:22AND WHERE ARE WE ARE FOCUSING ON
A TECH SIDE OF IT, THE MEDICAID
00:06:24SIDE IS A REALLY BIG DEAL.
>> BILL: YEAH, WE LOOKED AT SEVERAL
00:06:31HEALTH CARE PROGRAMS, INCLUDING
SOME COST-SHARING THAT THE STATE
00:06:34DOES WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
FOR MEDICARE PART D PRICES COME
00:06:38AND REALLY BIG DEMOGRAPHIC
CHANGE WAS IMPORTANT, BUT WHEN
00:06:40YOU LOOK AT WHAT THE MEDICARE
TRUSTEES ARE SAYING ON A FEDERAL
00:06:44LEVEL, THAT DRUG PRICES MAY GO
UP BY 5% A YEAR PER PERSON, THAT
00:06:49IS A HUGE DRIVER.
IF WE DO NOT DO ANYTHING, EVEN
00:06:54IF WE DID NOT HAVE THIS
IMMIGRANT TO CHANGE COMING, IF
00:06:58WE DID NOT DO ANYTHING, THAT
WOULD START TO BREAK THE BANK.
00:06:59I THINK PEOPLE HAVE BEEN
FOCUSING READILY ON HEALTH CARE
00:07:03COSTS ACROSS THE BOARD.
I KNOW THE KASICH ADMINISTRATION
00:07:10IS FOCUSED ON PRICES WITHIN THE
MEDICAID PROGRAM, AND NOW THEY
00:07:12ARE LOOKING AT BRINGING IN
PRIVATE INSURANCE COMPANIES,
00:07:19PRIVATE PROVIDERS AS A WAY TO
BRING DOWN HEALTH CARE COSTS.
00:07:20IT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT TO GET
AHEAD OF THAT CURVE RIGHT NOW.
00:07:23>> KAREN: BILL, GO AHEAD.
>> BILL: PART OF THE THING THAT YOU
00:07:29HAVE TO REALIZE, TOO, IS THAT TO
THE EXTENT THAT HEALTH CARE
00:07:33COSTS EXCEED THE RATE OF GENERAL
INFLATION, THAT IS GOING TO
00:07:38CROWD OUT OTHER SPENDING,
INCLUDING TAXABLE SPENDING.
00:07:43PEOPLE WILL BE SPENDING A LARGER
SHARE OF THEIR TOTAL INCOME OR
00:07:45DISPOSABLE INCOME ON THESE
HEALTH CARE-RELATED COSTS.
00:07:50I LOOK AT 60 YEARS WORTH OF
INFLATION IN HEALTH CARE VERSUS
00:07:56INFLATION IN GOODS IN GENERAL,
AND THE ONLY DECADE THAT HEALTH
00:08:02CARE EXPENSES WERE NOT GROWING
FASTER THAN INFLATION WAS THE
00:08:081950'S.
THERE ARE GUESSES, I WILL SAY,
00:08:18THAT HEALTH CARE INFLATION IS
GOING TO SLOW DOWN, BUT WE
00:08:20REALLY, HONESTLY DO NOT WANT TO
BET THE BANK ON THAT.
00:08:24>> KAREN: WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT
GUESSES OF WHERE THINGS ARE
00:08:28GOING TO FALL, YOU DO HAVE THIS
ISSUE OF INSTITUTIONAL CARE --
00:08:32NURSING HOMES -- AND HOME AND
COMMUNITY-BASED CARE -- TWO KEY
00:08:36PEOPLE IN THEIR HOMES.
THE STATE IS REALLY FOCUSING ON
00:08:38THE LATTER OF THOSE TWO, BUT IT
DOES CREATE A HUGE RANGE OF
00:08:45POSSIBILITIES.
IT COULD BE VERY EXPENSIVE OR
00:08:46LESSIG'S INSET.
-- OR LESS EXPENSIVE.
00:08:48>> JON: THERE HAVE BEEN DISCUSSIONS
ON LONG-TERM CARE, CARING PEOPLE
00:08:55IN THE NURSING HOMES, SO WE RAN
TWO DIFFERENT SCENARIOS.
00:08:59ONE WE CALL A LOW UTILIZATION
SCENARIO WHERE THINGS ARE PRETTY
00:09:06MUCH KEPT THE SAME IN TERMS OF
THE PROPORTION OF THE
00:09:10OLDER PEOPLE, AND IN THAT
SCENARIO, THE COSTS GO UP IN A
00:09:18MUCH SLOWER PACE.
IN A HIGH UTILIZATION SCENARIO,
00:09:22TWICE 6000 PEOPLE MORE STATEWIDE
WOULD USE THAT KIND OF SERVICE.
00:09:26IT MEANT A DIFFERENCE OF
HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS.
00:09:27>> KAREN: $100 MILLION UNDER ONE
SCENARIO TO FOREIGN TO MILLION
00:09:36DOLLARS IN ANOTHER SCENARIO.
THOSE ARE BIG NUMBERS.
00:09:37>> JON: THOSE WOULD TAKE A HUGE
CHUNK OUT OF THE STATE BUDGET.
00:09:41THAT LEADS TO DISCUSSION OF YES,
CARING FOR MORE PEOPLE IN THE
00:09:45COMMUNITY BUT ALSO INVESTING IN
PREVENTION AND TRYING TO KEEP
00:09:49PEOPLE HEALTHIER AT YOUNGER
AGES, THEY ARE HEALTHIER AT
00:09:52OLDER AGES AS WELL.
SO AGAIN IF YOU CAN KEEP THEM
00:09:56OUT OF A NURSING HOME, KEEP THEM
IN THE COMMUNITY, TALK ABOUT
00:09:59HOME MODIFICATIONS, PUTTING THE
RAMP IN, WIDENING THE HALLWAYS
00:10:07SO THE WHEELCHAIR CAN GET DOWN
THERE, VARIOUS ERGONOMIC CHANGES
00:10:10WILL HELP TO LOWER COSTS.
>> KAREN: YOU MENTIONED, BILL,
00:10:16ABOUT CROWDING OUT OTHER
SPENDING.
00:10:19RETIREMENT AND RETIREMENT AGE IS
DIFFERENT.
00:10:20THINGS LOOK A LOT DIFFERENT, AND
PEOPLE IN THAT GROUP ARE
00:10:23DIFFERENT NOW.
THERE ARE SOME MINORITY GROUPS
00:10:27IN THAT, THEY ARE MORE EDUCATED,
THEY ARE HEALTHIER,TWICE600 EOPE
00:10:32MCNIUO%POKWOUDUSETHA INDOF SEV.
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00:10:35UNDRD OF MILIONS 6F DOLEAHSR
00:10:36ÒKAREN-POO O%PHYAET IRN--PR,WRPE
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00:10:40SCENATI DOFE%-PN TO,EGRF% TO-MIH
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00:13:25WHICHOIS UELY, VE%Y IMPPRTANT.
00:13:26SECONDBES E%-PAE SOLUINECNIERED
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00:13:33PL%-FAIDU E OF SO ENODYTTO GO I-
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00:13:45PTIS SSMTHING WE')RE NOT
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00:13:59YUFEE TO DA WITHRDPOLNI %--PPTVF
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00:14:02TEEISES, ESPCIALLY THE
PPTENTIAL BDIE SEFICIR THIT
00:14:03YUFRECS?
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00:14:04ÃPHOPLE E%%-PEP HO RH HEALTHIEP
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00:14:12NEE LONGTR CARE%-
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00:14:20PEOL STAYTO IN TECMMUNIY AND
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00:14:23--POEINTSINK O, SHE LA SIDE, END
TO HA%E A-PNOETOR HONEST%%-- ISN
00:14:26CME TAX, WHIHICNE IS -SEGS TG
-
00:14:31BE TURNSDEASOUND EETEA A%-POFRA%
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00:14:34THEESTLXSSTAX?
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-
00:14:38SI,
WHAT IT CALLS THE LONGEVITY
00:14:45ECONOMY.
AARP'S EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT
00:14:47NANCY LEAMOND TRAVELED THROUGH
OHIO RECENTLY TO TALK ABOUT THE
00:14:50STUDY, WHICH SHE SAYS LOOKS AT
THE KINDS OF CONTRIBUTIONS THAT
00:14:52OLDER OHIOANS ARE MAKING.
NANCY: WHAT IT SHOWS IS THAT THE
00:15:03ECONOMIC IMPACT HERE IN A STATE
OF OHIO IS VERY SUBSTANTIAL FOR
00:15:05PEOPLE OVER THE AGE OF 50.
THEY ARE CONTRIBUTING --
00:15:09COMPARED TO THE SIZE OF THE
POPULATION THEY ARE -- THEY ARE
00:15:13CONTRIBUTING EVEN MORE WHEN YOU
LOOK AT GDP AND SUPPORT FOR
00:15:15JOBS.
THINK OF BECAUSE OF JOBS THAT
00:15:16ARE NECESSARY TO SOME WHAT AN
OLDER POPULATION.
00:15:17THEY ARE LARGELY IN THE AREA OF
HEALTH CARE.
00:15:21HEALTH CARE IS AN IMPORTANT
FACTOR IN OHIO.
00:15:25>> KAREN: LEAMOND SAYS AGREES WITH
THE CENTER FOR COMMUNITY
00:15:29SOLUTIONS AUTHORS THAT
WORKPLACES ARE GOING TO HAVE TO
00:15:32ADAPT TO OLDER WORKERS BY
CREATING MORE ERGONOMIC
00:15:34WORKSPACES AND MORE FLEXIBLE
SCHEDULES.
00:15:38SHE SAID THEY WILL NOT BE
RETIRING EITHER BECAUSE THEY
00:15:40CANNOT AFFORD TO OR THEY WANT TO
CONTINUE TO WORK.
00:15:43THEY WILL HAVE AN IMPACT ON THE
STATE BUDGET.
00:15:44NANCY: OF COURSE IF YOU ARE NOT
WORKING, YOU'RE NOT PAYING
00:15:48INCOME TAX, AND MORE SALES TAX
IS THE AMOUNT OF MONEY YOU HAVE
00:15:55EVERY MONTH, AND 50% OF OHIOANS
WHO ARE RECEIVING SOCIAL
00:16:00SECURITY, THAT IS THEIR MAIN
SOURCE OF INCOME, SO THEY DO NOT
00:16:01HAVE A LOGIC -- A LAVISH BUDGET.
WE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT SALES
00:16:08TAXES, BUT INCREASINGLY PEOPLE
ARE STAYING IN THE WORKFORCE, SO
00:16:11INCREASINGLY WILL SEE MORE AND
MORE PEOPLE OVER THE AGE OF 65
00:16:15PAYING INCOME TAXES BECAUSE
HOPEFULLY THEY WILL HAVE JOBS.
00:16:17>> KAREN: AND LEAMOND SAYS AGREES
WITH THE CENTER FOR COMMUNITY
00:16:22SOLUTIONS AUTHORS THAT
WORKPLACES ARE GOING TO HAVE TO
00:16:23ADAPT TO OLDER WORKERS BY
CREATING MORE ERGONOMIC
00:16:25WORKSPACES AND MORE FLEXIBLE
SCHEDULES.
00:16:28BUT SHE SAYS THAT LATTER ISSUE
IS SOMETHING THAT GEN XERS AND
00:16:37MILLENNIAL WORKERS WANT AS WELL.
THERE HAVE BEEN 63 GOVERNORS OF
00:16:46OHIO, AND SIX OF THEM HAVE
SERVED TWO SEPARATE TERMS IN THE
00:16:47STATE'S TOP EXECUTIVE OFFICE.
THE FIRST FIVE -- ALLEN TRIMBLE,
00:16:49WILSON SHANNON, RUTHERFORD B.
HAYES -- WHO ALSO WENT ON TO
00:16:52BECOME PRESIDENT -- JAMES COX
AND FRANK LAUSCHE -- HAVE MOSTLY
00:16:53FADED INTO HISTORY.
BUT THE LEGACY OF THE LAST
00:16:55MULTIPLE TERM GOVERNOR, JAMES
RHODES, LIVES ON IN MANY MINDS,
00:16:59AND NOW IN THE PAGES OF A BOOK
THAT'S BEEN DESCRIBED BY ANOTHER
00:17:04GOVERNOR, BOB TAFT, THE FIRST
"THOROUGH, BALANCED BIOGRAPHY OF
00:17:06THIS DOMINANT POLITICAL
PERSONALITY AND AMAZING HUMAN
00:17:09BEING."
THE BOOK "JAMES A RHODES: OHIO
00:17:10COLOSSUS" TRACKS THE RISE OF
RHODES FROM HIS MODEST
00:17:12UPBRINGING IN JACKSON COUNTY TO
HIS ATHLETIC ACCOMPLISHMENTS TO
00:17:15HIS LONG POLITICAL CAREER,
BEGINNING ON THE SCHOOL BOARD
00:17:19AND ENDING AS ONE OF JUST SIX
GOVERNORS ANYWHERE IN THE U.S.
00:17:26WHO SERVED FOUR FOUR-YEAR TERMS.
THE BOOK IS SO COMPREHENSIVE AND
00:17:33WELL-RESEARCHED, IT HAS THREE
CO-AUTHORS -- FORMER "PLAIN
00:17:35DEALER" REPORTER RICHARD
ZIMMERMAN, WHO STARTED THE BOOK
00:17:37BEFORE HE DIED, FORMER "PLAIN
DEALER" AND ASSOCIATED PRESS
00:17:39REPORTER TOM DIEMER, AND LEE
LEONARD, WHO REPORTED FOR UPI
00:17:41AND THE "COLUMBUS DISPATCH"
UNTIL HE RETIRED A FEW YEARS
00:17:43AGO.
IN NOVEMBER, I ASKED LEE LEONARD
00:17:48ABOUT THE COMPLEX LEGACY OF JIM
RHODES -- BOTH THE CONTROVERSIAL
00:17:52TIMES, SUCH AS HIS NASTY LOSING
CAMPAIGN AGAINST DICK CELESTE IN
00:17:551986, AND THE TRAGIC SHOOTINGS
AT KENT STATE, BUT ALSO HIS
00:17:57REPUTATION AS A DEALMAKER AND A
CONSUMMATE POLITICIAN WHO GOT
00:17:59THINGS DONE.
LEE: THERE HAVE BEEN SEVERAL
00:18:04VANITY BOOKS ABOUT RHODES THAT
HAVE BEEN PUT OUT THAT TALKED
00:18:11ABOUT HIS ACCOMPLISHMENTS.
WE BORROWED HEAVILY FROM THAT.
00:18:14I THINK THEY MIGHT HAVE
EXAGGERATED.
00:18:16WE TRIED TO GET AS CLOSE AS
POSSIBLE TO WHAT HE ACCOMPLISHED
00:18:19IN THE AREAS OF EDUCATION AND
MONUMENT BUILDING.
00:18:21THAT IS, HE WAS GREAT FOR
BUILDING BUILDINGS.
00:18:26AND THE BUILDINGS TRADES UNIONS
LOVE HIM FOR THAT.
00:18:33THEY WERE ON HIS SIDE.
SO HE WAS ABLE TO WORK WITH
00:18:36VARIOUS DIFFERENT KINDS OF IN A
WAY THAT I DO NOT THINK THAT
00:18:40SOME OF THE POLITICIANS NOW ARE
ABLE TO DO.
00:18:41>> KAREN: HOW MUCH DO YOU FEEL LIKE
THE KENT STATE SITUATION PLAYED
00:18:45ON HIM?
I MEAN, YOU HAVE A LOT OF
00:18:47DESCRIPTIONS OF HIM BEING GRUFF
AND FLIMSY AND DIFFICULT IN THE
00:18:52BOOK, BUT ALSO SOME SOFTER SIDE
STORIES ABOUT HOW MUCH HE LOVED
00:18:56HIS WIFE AND THINGS LIKE THAT.
BUT THE KENT STATE'S
00:19:00SHOOTINGS I THINK FOR A LOT OF
PEOPLE REALLY STAND OUT.
00:19:03HOW TO THAT WHOLE SITUATION WAY
ON HIM, AND WHAT WAS HE LIKE
00:19:05BEFORE AND AFTER THE?
LEE: WE COULD NOT SEE ANY
00:19:10DIFFERENCE BEFORE AND AFTER, AND
THAT IS THE WAY HE WANTED IT.
00:19:11I THINK THAT HURT HIM AND
ESPECIALLY HURT HIM BUT IT
00:19:18HAPPENED AND THAT HE WAS IN
CHARGE AT THE TIME.
00:19:19HE DID NOT WANT TO ACCEPT THE
BLAME FOR THAT, BUT I DO THINK
00:19:24THAT DEEPLY IT HURT HIM INSIDE
BECAUSE HE LIKED YOUNG PEOPLE,
00:19:31AND HE WAS NOT BLAMING THAT ON
THE STUDENTS.
00:19:35HE WAS MORE BLAMING IT ON PEOPLE
WHO CAME IN FROM THE OUTSIDE AND
00:19:37WERE AGITATING DURING THOSE
DISTURBANCES, BUT I DO NOT THINK
00:19:45-- I KNOW HE DID NOT WANT TO
ADMIT IT, AND THAT IS THE WAY HE
00:19:49WAS ABOUT MANY THINGS.
HE DID NOT WANT TO ADMIT FAULTS,
00:19:53HE DID NOT WANT TO TALK ABOUT
SAD THINGS THAT HAD HAPPENED, HE
00:19:57JUST WANTED TO MOVE ON AHEAD.
>> KAREN: WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT HIM
00:20:01AS A POLITICIAN, HE ALSO HAD A
WAY OF CONNECTING WITH OTHER
00:20:04PEOPLE WHO YOU WOULD NOT
NECESSARILY -- NOT JUST THE
00:20:07MONEY MAKERS AND THE BIG,
CONNECTED PEOPLE.
00:20:11HE LIKED TO TALK TO PEOPLE WHO
WERE NOT NECESSARILY THE PEOPLE
00:20:13DONATING TO HIS CAMPAIGN.
LEE: WE WOULD GO ON TRIPS, THE
00:20:18PRESS CORPS, HE WOULD TAKE US
ALONG, AND IT WOULD BE TIME FOR
00:20:22LUNCH, AND HE HE WOULD GO INTO
SOME RESTAURANT OR DINER AND BUY
00:20:25UP A WHOLE BOX OF HAMBURGERS,
WHICH WAS HIS FAVORITE FOOD,
00:20:30HAMBURGERS, WITH GARNISHMENT ON
THEM, AND WE WOULD BE SITTING
00:20:35THERE EATING COME IN AND WE WAS
A WELL, WHERE IS THE GOVERNOR,
00:20:38AND YOU WOULD GO INTO THE
RESTAURANT, AND HE WOULD BE
00:20:41SITTING DOWN BESIDE SOME
LABORER, AND THEY WOULD BE
00:20:44EATING A BOWL OF CHILI OR
PICKLED EGG.
00:20:47HE LOVED THE COMMON PEOPLE.
HOWEVER, THAT IS NOT TO SAY HE
00:20:53DID NOT GET ALONG WELL WITH THE
BUSINESS COMMUNITY, AND THAT WAS
00:20:57ONE OF THE REASONS WHY HE F
ADED AWAY BECAUSE THE BUSINESS
00:21:04TITANS WHO SUPPORTED HIM DURING
A 1960'S AND FRIENDSHIP AND
00:21:06MONEY, AFTER A WHILE, YOU COULD
NOT GET THINGS DONE BY
00:21:15CONSORTING WITH THE BUSINESS
MOGULS.
00:21:16YOU HAD TO GO THROUGH THEIR
IMAGE MAKERS AT THE STATEHOUSE.
00:21:21HE DID NOT PICK UP ON THAT
CHANGE IN THE CULTURE.
00:21:25>> KAREN: WE, AS REPORTERS, OFTEN
TALK LOBBY -- TALK ABOUT
00:21:34THE CURRENT GOVERNOR, JOHN
KASICH, AND TRYING TO FIND HIM
00:21:36ON A GIVEN DAY, BUT HE WAS
NOTHING COMPARED TO JIM RHODES
00:21:43AND HIS ACCESSIBILITY TO
REPORTERS.
00:21:44[LAUGHS]
LEE: WELL, GOVERNOR RHODES, WHEN
00:21:49HE WANTED TO GET SOMETHING OUT
THERE, HE WAS NOT ABOVE
00:21:54SCHEDULING TWO AND THREE PRESS
CONFERENCE IS A DAY, AND HE
00:21:56WOULD RUN DOWN THERE AND PERFORM
AND YOU WOULD GO BACK AND WRITE
00:21:59YOUR STORY.
THAT IS WHAT HE WANTED.
00:22:00HE DID NOT WANT YOU TO KNOW WHAT
HE WAS DOING, HE WAS NOT
00:22:04VISIBLE, AND NOT ACCESSIBLE.
YOU COULD NOT FIND OUT WHERE HE
00:22:07WAS.
HE DID NOT HAVE A GOVERNOR'S
00:22:12SCHEDULE.
AFTER THE FIRST EIGHT YEARS WHEN
00:22:14HE CAN BACK INTO OFFICE AND WE
HAD HAD FOUR YEARS OF JOHN J
00:22:16GILLIGAN, THE DEMOCRAT WHO
PUBLISH A GOVERNOR SCHEDULE
00:22:20EVERY DAY, WE SAID, WE ARE GOING
TO HAVE THIS KIND OF ORDERLY
00:22:25GOVERNMENT, AND RHODES IN EFFECT
SAID NO, YOU ARE NOT, I AM JUST
00:22:31GOING TO DO WHAT I DID LAST
TIME.
00:22:32>> KAREN: AND HE DID NOT LIVE IN
THE GOVERNOR'S RESIDENCE, WHICH
00:22:35JOHN KASICH DOES NOT LIVE IN THE
GOVERNOR'S RESIDENCE.
00:22:40HE KEPT ALL KINDS OF HOURS,
DIFFERENT PLACES, HE WAS AT THE
00:22:42ATHLETIC CLUB.
HE DID NOT LET ANYONE -- I AM
00:22:45SURE HIS STAFF KNEW, BUT
REPORTERS DID NOT KNOW.
00:22:47LEE: THAT IS RIGHT, AND HE DID
NOT WANT US TO KNOW.
00:22:53YOU BRING UP GOVERNOR KASICH --
WE CAN SEE FLASHES OF RHODES
00:22:55THERE.
THE RAMBLING SPEECHES AND THE
00:23:01UNPREDICTABILITY.
WHAT IS HE GOING TO DO NEXT?
00:23:02BECAUSE JOHN KASICH DOES NOT
GOVERN BY A FORMULA, EITHER.
00:23:07NEITHER DID RHODES.
>> KAREN: HE WAS WELL READ, AND HE
00:23:14WAS RESPONSE BEFORE THE PUSH
TOWARD COLLEGE EDUCATION IN OHIO
00:23:18AND REALLY AFFECTING THAT.
LEE: WE NEVER KNEW HOW WELL READ
00:23:21HE WAS.
HE READ LOOKS -- SERIOUS BOOKS,
00:23:25NOT COMIC BOOKS.
THAT IS HOW HE LEARNED.
00:23:27HE CARRIED "THE WALL STREET
JOURNAL" AROUND IN HIS
00:23:33BRIEFCASE.
THAT IS WHERE HE GOT A LOT OF
00:23:36HIS IDEAS FOR FORWARD-LOOKING
TECHNOLOGY THAT HE WANTED TO GET
00:23:39IN ON, ESPECIALLY IN THE PRIVATE
SECTOR WHERE HE COULD MAKE SOME
00:23:42MONEY, WHICH IS WHAT HE DID.
BUT HE DID THINGS THAT YOU WOULD
00:23:47NEVER HAVE EXPECTED HIM TO DO.
HE IS THE ONE WHO STOPPED
00:23:51EXECUTING PEOPLE.
MURDERERS.
00:23:53HE STOPPED THE ELECTRIC CHAIR, I
BELIEVE IT WAS IN 1963, AND IT
00:24:02NEVER STARTED UP AGAIN UNTIL
INTO THE 1980'S.
00:24:03NO, THE 1990'S, BECAUSE THAT IS
WHEN BOB PASS WAS GOVERNOR, AND
00:24:10THEY DID NOT PASS A LAW
REINSTATING THE DEATH PENALTY
00:24:13UNTIL 1981.
AND JUSTICE PFEIFER WAS THE
00:24:16SPONSOR OF THAT.
>> KAREN: WITH RHODES AND THE
00:24:20PERSONALITY HAD, THE PUBLIC
STANCES ON ISSUES HE MADE IN HIS
00:24:25OVERALL PERSONALITY, THIS STATE
IS LARGELY REPUBLICAN, AT LEAST
00:24:31ACCORDING TO THE LAST ELECTION.
COULD JIM RHODES BE ELECTED THE
00:24:35GOVERNOR TODAY, IF HE WERE
ALIVE, OF COURSE?
00:24:37LEE: THE ONLY REASON HE COULD
NOT BE ELECTED IS BECAUSE THINGS
00:24:45HAVE MOVED ON.
HIS LAST CAMPAIGN -- EVEN
00:24:49ACCORDING TO HIS OWN RUNNING
MAKE, BOB TAFT, I THINK HE SAYS
00:24:57IN THE FORWARD, AND IF YOU DO
NOT, HE SEVEN IN THE BOOK, THE
00:24:59CAMPAIGN THAT YEAR IN 1986 WAS
PITIFUL BECAUSE THEY HAD VERY
00:25:04FEW ADVISERS, THERE WERE NOT
GOOD AT MONEY RAISING AT THAT
00:25:10POINT, AND THEY WERE JUST
BASICALLY TAKING CLIPS OUT OF
00:25:15NEWSPAPERS AND MAKING PRESS
RELEASES OUT OF WHAT THEIR
00:25:20OPINIONS WERE IN AND GOING
AROUND THE STATE.
00:25:21HIS STYLE OF CAMPAIGNING JUST
WOULD NOT GET IT ANYMORE, AND I
00:25:26THINK THAT WOULD BE THE MAIN
BARRIER.
00:25:27BUT I THINK WE ARE IN NEED OF
SOMEONE WHO CAN GET THINGS DONE
00:25:33IN THE WAY THAT HE DID.
>> KAREN: LEONARD SAYS THE BOOK'S
00:25:37TITLE "OHIO COLOSSUS" CAME FROM
ONE OF HIS CO-AUTHORS, TOM
00:25:39DIEMER, WHO THOUGHT IT A GOOD
PLAY ON THE NAME OF THE COLOSSUS
00:25:41OF RHODES STATUE, ONE OF THE
SEVEN WONDERS OF THE ANCIENT
00:25:42WORLD.
AND LEONARD SAID IT WORKS
00:25:47BECAUSE OF THE WAY JIM RHODES
DOMINATED THE POLITICAL
00:25:49LANDSCAPE OF OHIO.
THAT'S IT FOR THIS WEEK.
00:25:52FOR MY COLLEAGUES AT OHIO PUBLIC
RADIO AND TELEVISION, THANKS FOR
00:25:54WATCHING.
IF YOU'D LIKE TO ASK QUESTIONS,
00:25:55MAKE COMMENTS, OR WATCH THIS
WEEK'S SHOW OR EARLIER EPISODES,
00:25:59PLEASE VISIT OUR WEBSITE AT
OR WATCH ON THE OHIO CHANNEL'S
00:26:04WEBSITE OR AT
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00:26:06AND YOU CAN FOLLOW JO INGLES,
ANDY CHOW, AND ME ON TWITTER.
00:26:09HAPPY EASTER, AND PLEASE JOIN US
AGAIN NEXT TIME FOR "THE STATE
00:26:11OF OHIO."
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Note : Transcripts are compiled from uncorrected captions