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00:00:39The Ohio
00:00:39Supreme Court rules on
00:00:40who can use ballot drop boxes
00:00:40and who can't.
00:00:44And the second
00:00:44of two conversations
00:00:46about the redistricting
00:00:47overhaul, known as issue one
00:00:49with an opponent
00:00:49of the amendment.
00:00:51That's this
00:00:51week in the state of Ohio.
00:01:11Welcome to the state of Ohio.
00:01:13I'm Karen Kasler.
00:01:14Voters can only use
00:01:14ballot drop boxes
00:01:17to deposit their own ballots.
00:01:19And if they're delivering an
00:01:19early ballot for anyone else,
00:01:22they have to go in to
00:01:22the Board of Elections office.
00:01:25That directive, issued
00:01:26August 31st by Republican
00:01:26Secretary of State
00:01:28Frank LaRosa, has been upheld
00:01:28by the Ohio Supreme Court.
00:01:31In a ruling that minority
00:01:31Democrats blasted as, quote,
00:01:34little more than voter
00:01:34intimidation
00:01:36and quote and again quoting
00:01:36a travesty beyond description,
00:01:41the courts for Republicans
00:01:41said the lawsuit false.
00:01:43September 27th
00:01:44was too late to avoid
00:01:44impacting early voting.
00:01:48The decision means people
00:01:48assisting voters, usually
00:01:50family members of disabled
00:01:50or elderly Ohioans,
00:01:53will have to sign paperwork
00:01:54at boards of elections
00:01:54offices in person
00:01:57that they are authorized
00:01:57to drop off those ballots.
00:01:59Larose said he was grateful
00:01:59and that the directive
00:02:01is designed
00:02:02to protect voters
00:02:02and election workers
00:02:04from accusations
00:02:04of illegal voting.
00:02:07But the League of Women Voters
00:02:08said it's
00:02:08concerned about the workload
00:02:10this will create for elections
00:02:10officials.
00:02:12The number of Ohioans
00:02:12in poverty
00:02:14stayed steady from last year,
00:02:16but the number of children
00:02:16living in poverty
00:02:18is concerning.
00:02:19The state's 48 community
00:02:19action agencies,
00:02:21which work with low
00:02:21income people.
00:02:24The 2024 State of Poverty
00:02:24in Ohio report shows
00:02:27that overall, 13.4% of Ohioans
00:02:27live in poverty.
00:02:31That includes nearly
00:02:3118% of children,
00:02:33nearly a third
00:02:33more than the overall rate.
00:02:36The food insecurity rate
00:02:36for kids
00:02:37is more than 22%,
00:02:37higher than the overall rate.
00:02:4123% of kids live in cost
00:02:41burdened households
00:02:44that spend more than 30%
00:02:44of their income on housing.
00:02:48Phillip Hall,
00:02:48with the Ohio Association
00:02:49of Community Action
00:02:50Agency, says there are ways to
00:02:50combat poverty, but he fears
00:02:54they're not being pursued
00:02:54by supermajority.
00:02:56Republican lawmakers. to?
00:02:58The answer is not
00:02:59the continuation
00:02:59of custody, income taxes.
00:03:03Making the well-off better off
00:03:03is not a solution.
00:03:06Cole says dealing with
00:03:06this is critical
00:03:08because it's hard for people
00:03:09who are born into poverty
00:03:09to get out.
00:03:12and too many cases of poor
00:03:12families.
00:03:15The life you will live
00:03:15is determined at birth.
00:03:19Well, we know that poverty
00:03:19has many causes.
00:03:22Your economic
00:03:24situation
00:03:24at birth is a major one.
00:03:26It has nothing to do
00:03:26with personal choices.
00:03:30Another note from the report.
00:03:3113 counties are maternity
00:03:31care deserts, most of them
00:03:35where more than half of
00:03:35the women are low income.
00:03:37Calls suggest
00:03:37the state can help
00:03:39by paying contractors
00:03:39to build affordable housing,
00:03:42increasing the allowance
00:03:42for Snap benefits
00:03:45and paying
00:03:45medical students costs
00:03:47if they commit to working
00:03:47in low income areas.
00:03:49A refundable tax credit
00:03:49for low income
00:03:51families was proposed earlier
00:03:51this month
00:03:54by two Democratic lawmakers.
00:03:56some Republican state
00:03:56lawmakers
00:03:58want to penalize immigrants
00:03:58for entering Ohio
00:04:00if they haven't gotten
00:04:01legal authorization
00:04:01to be in the United States,
00:04:04the so-called America
00:04:04First Act would create felony
00:04:07unlawful presence
00:04:07in the state, charges,
00:04:10and attach
00:04:10a one year prison sentence
00:04:12and several hundred dollars
00:04:12worth of fines as punishment.
00:04:15One of the sponsors,
00:04:15Representative Gary
00:04:17Klick, said
00:04:18he wants state law to convey
00:04:19that Ohio is not a sanctuary
00:04:19state for illegal immigration.
00:04:23An attorney
00:04:23with the Community, Refugee
00:04:25and Immigration
00:04:26Services, said the bill raises
00:04:26constitutional questions
00:04:29and, quote on its face
00:04:29demonstrates
00:04:31a significant misunderstanding
00:04:31of federal immigration law.
00:04:35The law is modeled
00:04:35after an Oklahoma law
00:04:37which is currently
00:04:37on hold in federal court.
00:04:40The Secretary of State's
00:04:41office reports
00:04:41more than 551,000 ballots
00:04:44have been cast
00:04:44by mail, in person,
00:04:46or deposited into drop boxes
00:04:48since early voting started
00:04:48earlier this month.
00:04:50Over 1.4 million absentee
00:04:50ballots have been sent out.
00:04:54Republicans
00:04:54are leading Democrats
00:04:56and requesting early ballots,
00:04:57but more than twice
00:04:57as many ballots
00:04:59have been requested
00:05:00by unaffiliated voters
00:05:00as Republican voters.
00:05:03Early
00:05:03voting ends November 3rd.
00:05:05Applications for early
00:05:05ballots must be received
00:05:07by local boards of elections
00:05:07by October 29th,
00:05:10and must be postmarked
00:05:10by November 4th,
00:05:12to be counted after the polls
00:05:12close on November 5th.
00:05:16One driver
00:05:16for many voters is issue one,
00:05:18the complicated amendment
00:05:18to overhaul
00:05:20the redistricting process used
00:05:20for the first time in 2021,
00:05:24the Ohio
00:05:24Redistricting Commission
00:05:26approved maps that were ruled
00:05:27unconstitutionally
00:05:27gerrymandered seven times
00:05:30by the Ohio Supreme Court's
00:05:30three Democrats and Republican
00:05:33Chief Justice
00:05:33Maureen O'Connor.
00:05:34A federal court allowed
00:05:34the maps to be used,
00:05:37and after O'Connor retired
00:05:37in 2022, the maps were tweaked
00:05:41and then unanimously approved
00:05:41by the seven
00:05:43elected officials on the Ohio
00:05:43Redistricting Commission.
00:05:46I've talked to both yes and no
00:05:46campaigns.
00:05:48Last week, Maureen O'Connor,
00:05:48the author of the amendment
00:05:51and this week,
00:05:51Republican strategist
00:05:53Ryan Steuben Roush
00:05:53speaking for the no.
00:05:55On one campaign.
00:05:56The amendment requires maps
00:05:58be drawn
00:05:58based on a proportionality
00:05:59formula that corresponds
00:05:59closely with the results
00:06:02of the last six
00:06:02statewide elections.
00:06:04Now, almost every definition
00:06:04I've read of the word
00:06:06gerrymandering
00:06:06says that it's the practice
00:06:08of drawing district lines
00:06:08to give one party an extreme
00:06:12or unfair or bigger advantage
00:06:12than the other party.
00:06:15How is what issue one
00:06:15would do unfair?
00:06:19Or how is it gerrymandering?
00:06:21If it's based on the results
00:06:21of the last six
00:06:22statewide elections
00:06:22that Ohioans voted it?
00:06:24Sure.
00:06:24It's a gerrymandering,
00:06:24like you said,
00:06:26which comes from back
00:06:26in the 1812, 18, 12 ourselves.
00:06:30Guy named, Elbridge Gerry,
00:06:30former vice president who drew
00:06:33he and his party drew a map
00:06:33that looked like a salamander.
00:06:36And they said,
00:06:36oh, it's a gerrymander.
00:06:38And so that's
00:06:38where the term comes from.
00:06:40And as long as you have to
00:06:40draw districts,
00:06:43you're always going to have to
00:06:43draw districts
00:06:44that are going to make
00:06:44some people mad.
00:06:46And so issue one,
00:06:46what it would do is it takes,
00:06:50the gerrymandering
00:06:50protections
00:06:51that we have
00:06:52in the Constitution
00:06:52that were passed by voters
00:06:54overwhelmingly
00:06:54in 2015 and 2018.
00:06:56And it crosses those out,
00:06:57and it puts issue
00:06:57one in its place.
00:06:59And we talk about
00:06:59proportionality.
00:07:01That's what
00:07:01the folks who support
00:07:02issue one like to talk about.
00:07:04But the only way
00:07:04to get proportionality
00:07:06in a state like Ohio
00:07:06is to gerrymander districts.
00:07:10And so Ohio is a big state.
00:07:12You've got 88 counties.
00:07:13And we've got pockets
00:07:13of people.
00:07:16People
00:07:16don't live proportionately
00:07:17in the state of Ohio.
00:07:18There's, you know, there's
00:07:19the big cities,
00:07:19there's the three C's.
00:07:21But, you know,
00:07:21half of our population
00:07:23lives spread out
00:07:23and all sorts of counties.
00:07:25And so,
00:07:25to get this proportionality
00:07:28that issue one requires
00:07:28the way to do it.
00:07:30And the only way to do
00:07:30it is to take those cities
00:07:33and slice them up,
00:07:33dice them up and extend them,
00:07:37gerrymander them
00:07:38out into the suburbs,
00:07:38out into the rural areas.
00:07:41You know,
00:07:41if we take Columbus here,
00:07:42you know, 1.3, almost 1.5
00:07:44million people
00:07:44to get districts
00:07:47that are going to meet
00:07:47this proportionality.
00:07:49They're going to have to slice
00:07:49and get voters
00:07:51probably all the way
00:07:51up to Marion County in Ohio,
00:07:54you know,
00:07:5450, 60, 70 miles north.
00:07:57And so doing that
00:07:57to get a political outcome,
00:07:59that's the definition
00:07:59of gerrymandering.
00:08:01so how do you defend
00:08:01the current system
00:08:03which is created maps
00:08:05that resulted in 67%
00:08:05Republicans in Ohio's
00:08:07congressional delegation, 67%
00:08:07Republicans in the Ohio House
00:08:11and 79% Republicans
00:08:11in the Ohio Senate.
00:08:13I mean, is that representative
00:08:13of how Ohioans vote?
00:08:16The previous
00:08:16gerrymandering reforms
00:08:18that voters passed in 2015
00:08:18and 2018,
00:08:20they went into how the maps
00:08:20were drawn most recently.
00:08:23And listen,
00:08:23no one thinks that everything
00:08:25that the system is perfectly
00:08:25I certainly don't I'm not here
00:08:27to defend maps or lines
00:08:27or anything like that.
00:08:29What I'm here to defend
00:08:29is the people who elect
00:08:33the map makers should be
00:08:33Ohioans, should be voters.
00:08:36And what issue one does is
00:08:37it takes away
00:08:37the accountability
00:08:38that Ohioans
00:08:38have had for 222 years.
00:08:42If you don't like the maps
00:08:42and how they're drawn,
00:08:45fire the map makers.
00:08:46It's been that simple
00:08:46for quite some time.
00:08:48But the real difference here,
00:08:48what we're seeing in Ohio is
00:08:52that policies change, politics
00:08:52change, parties change.
00:08:56And that's why Republicans
00:08:56are dominant in Ohio.
00:08:58It's not because of maps, it's
00:08:58because of voters.
00:09:02I mean, look at the last 28
00:09:02statewide executive elections.
00:09:07Democrats are oh for 28.
00:09:10And so that's not gerrymander.
00:09:12You can't gerrymander a state
00:09:13that's just shifting
00:09:13policies and shifting,
00:09:16political preferences.
00:09:17Democrats
00:09:17controlled the Ohio House.
00:09:20They controlled all three
00:09:20branches of government
00:09:21in Ohio for decades,
00:09:22you know, 60, 70s, 80s,
00:09:22and then things changed.
00:09:26And so the take the valley,
00:09:26the Mahoning Valley used to be
00:09:29a reliable stronghold
00:09:29for Democrats.
00:09:31You know,
00:09:31it was just up there.
00:09:32You could go from Toledo
00:09:32to Youngstown
00:09:34all the way across
00:09:34Lake Erie, up north.
00:09:36And it was a bastion
00:09:36of Democrat support
00:09:39flip forward, you know, 2016
00:09:39or so Donald Trump,
00:09:42that's changed completely.
00:09:43And so party
00:09:43preferences are changing.
00:09:45That's the big reason why
00:09:45Democrats can't win in Ohio.
00:09:49It's not the lines, it's the
00:09:49policies in the candidates.
00:09:52Well, could
00:09:53the argument be made, though,
00:09:54that gerrymandering
00:09:54has weakened
00:09:56the minority party was weaken
00:09:56the Democrats in Ohio?
00:09:59Yeah, sure I get listen,
00:10:00I think that the biggest
00:10:00problem for Democrats
00:10:02winning elections
00:10:02continues to be Democrats,
00:10:04just like, you know,
00:10:04in the 60s, 70s and 80s.
00:10:06The biggest problem
00:10:06for Republicans
00:10:07was the Republicans,
00:10:07and their candidates.
00:10:10And so, you know, there's
00:10:10no perfect system for a map.
00:10:13The only you
00:10:14the only way to get a true
00:10:15proportional map
00:10:15would just to be
00:10:16to have statewide elections
00:10:16for everything, you know,
00:10:19pick your top 15 candidates
00:10:19for Congress statewide.
00:10:22And those people, women.
00:10:22That doesn't work
00:10:22for a lot of other reasons
00:10:25that we have,
00:10:25because we can't lose
00:10:27sight of the other things
00:10:27that matter for districts,
00:10:30compact districts.
00:10:32If I live, you know,
00:10:33if I live in Delaware County,
00:10:33Ohio,
00:10:34I would like my state
00:10:34representatives to be,
00:10:37you know, somewhere
00:10:37close to that.
00:10:38I don't want my state
00:10:38represented lives to be 80, 90
00:10:41miles away.
00:10:42I want to be able
00:10:42to go to them and say, hey,
00:10:44this local issue that I care
00:10:44about, you are also local.
00:10:47And so you care about that.
00:10:48And so you can't have perfect
00:10:48maps at a draw.
00:10:52They have everything
00:10:52that have partizan,
00:10:54this compactness,
00:10:54all those things. Right.
00:10:56But what issue one does is
00:10:56it takes that and says
00:10:58forget about these things
00:10:58like compact districts.
00:11:01Forget about being able
00:11:01to talk
00:11:02to your representative
00:11:02about local issues.
00:11:04All we care about
00:11:04is the Partizan makeup.
00:11:06All we care about is that.
00:11:07And that's
00:11:07that's gerrymandering.
00:11:10A report
00:11:10from the Brennan Center
00:11:11earlier this year showed more
00:11:11than 9 million Ohioans,
00:11:14about 77% of the state's
00:11:14population
00:11:16live, in state House
00:11:16districts that are either
00:11:19uncontested, there's
00:11:19uncontested races or one
00:11:22party has a disproportionate
00:11:22advantage. 77%.
00:11:25Is that fair?
00:11:26It's not fair.
00:11:27But, you know, one
00:11:27Ohio issue one is going to do
00:11:29it's going to take that
00:11:29to close to close to 100%
00:11:32because issue one passes,
00:11:32we are going to be required
00:11:36to draw districts
00:11:37based on, to,
00:11:37to draw districts
00:11:39that favor either
00:11:39Democrats or Republicans.
00:11:41And so there's not going to be
00:11:41any competitive districts.
00:11:43There's going to be
00:11:43the Republican districts
00:11:45there guys going to be
00:11:45the Democrat districts.
00:11:47And that's
00:11:47going to be about it.
00:11:48And if you don't like it,
00:11:48tough.
00:11:50There's no accountability.
00:11:52There's no redress.
00:11:53There's no hey,
00:11:53I want to fire the map makers
00:11:55if you don't like it. 11.5
00:11:55million Ohioans.
00:11:57Too bad.
00:11:58That's what
00:11:58we get on the issue on the no.
00:12:00On one
00:12:01side is raise questions
00:12:01about how a panel of 15 people
00:12:04without any current or former
00:12:04political affiliations
00:12:08or professionalism in terms of
00:12:08being paid to be politicians
00:12:12who want to participate
00:12:12in a lengthy redistricting
00:12:14process, will be found now.
00:12:16Former Chief Justice
00:12:16Maureen O'Connor
00:12:17was in that chair
00:12:17last week on the show,
00:12:20and she said
00:12:20that other states have done it
00:12:21and that they're going
00:12:21to encourage people to apply.
00:12:24And in a state of 12
00:12:24million people,
00:12:25they're going to find
00:12:25many people
00:12:27who fit that description.
00:12:28And from that, 9015
00:12:28will be chosen.
00:12:31Why don't you think
00:12:31that's possible?
00:12:33Well, it's
00:12:33certainly possible.
00:12:35I mean, people can pick folks,
00:12:36but let's talk about
00:12:36something else
00:12:38you just said there,
00:12:38which is it has been tried
00:12:38before, and Michigan
00:12:40is the best example
00:12:40that we have.
00:12:42Issue
00:12:42one's text is very close.
00:12:44It's not exactly identical,
00:12:44but it's awful close.
00:12:4695% of it's the same.
00:12:48And just,
00:12:48I think it was last week,
00:12:50the former chairman
00:12:50of the Michigan
00:12:52Redistricting Commission
00:12:52was here in Ohio and
00:12:54and was asked about it.
00:12:55And this
00:12:55this woman is an independent,
00:12:57not a Republican,
00:12:57not a Democrat.
00:12:58And her advice to
00:12:58Ohioans was vote no.
00:13:01I can't support issue one.
00:13:02You shouldn't either.
00:13:03Because her experience
00:13:03in Michigan
00:13:05and her experience was,
00:13:06listen, we started
00:13:06with these unelected
00:13:10bureaucrats, and they meant
00:13:10well at the beginning.
00:13:13They had people's
00:13:13best interests in mind,
00:13:14but they quickly realized,
00:13:14according to her,
00:13:17that they had no
00:13:17there was no accountability.
00:13:20They could do what they
00:13:20wanted. They lost their way.
00:13:22They did what they wanted
00:13:22and what they wanted.
00:13:24And what they did in Michigan
00:13:25was they created maps
00:13:25and those maps for,
00:13:28held by a bipartisan
00:13:30and by a unanimous
00:13:30federal court
00:13:31to be unconstitutionally
00:13:31gerrymandered.
00:13:35And so we know what we're
00:13:35going to get with issue one,
00:13:37and we shouldn't
00:13:38make the same mistakes
00:13:38that Michigan made.
00:13:40I should add that,
00:13:40the chair of that commission
00:13:43in Michigan
00:13:43actually responded
00:13:44to my statehouse
00:13:44news of our colleague
00:13:46Sarah Donaldson defending
00:13:46the whole system in Michigan.
00:13:48So I should put that out
00:13:48there.
00:13:50Senate President Matt Hoffman
00:13:50and others have said that
00:13:52military members are excluded
00:13:52from this commission,
00:13:55as are their families
00:13:55and their employees.
00:13:57And so our police officers
00:13:57and their families
00:13:59are citizens, not politicians.
00:14:00Spokesman
00:14:00says that's not true,
00:14:01that they will be
00:14:01actually encouraged to apply.
00:14:04Do you know where this is
00:14:04coming from that
00:14:05that this, information about
00:14:05these folks are excluded
00:14:09from the amendment is it
00:14:09where is it in the amendment?
00:14:12It's actually it's right there
00:14:13in the
00:14:14in the text of the amendment,
00:14:14anyone who holds
00:14:15elective office,
00:14:15elected or appointive office.
00:14:18And so that's a definition
00:14:19that's used in state
00:14:19and federal law.
00:14:21And again,
00:14:21I hate to keep going back
00:14:21to Michigan because, you know,
00:14:23we don't like them
00:14:23so much in football.
00:14:25But let's look at the text
00:14:25of the Michigan amendment
00:14:28very, very similar to Ohio,
00:14:28but Michigan,
00:14:31which has the same sort
00:14:31of disqualifications,
00:14:33has a carve out
00:14:33that says this doesn't apply
00:14:37to members of the military.
00:14:39Well,
00:14:39but whoever wrote issue one,
00:14:41they decided
00:14:41not to include that.
00:14:44And so Michigan saw
00:14:44this issue.
00:14:45They said, oh, hey,
00:14:45this text is going to
00:14:47you know, obviously,
00:14:48we have members
00:14:48of the military, members
00:14:49of the Ohio National Guard
00:14:49that are appointed members
00:14:52of, state government.
00:14:53So we have to make sure
00:14:53we can exclude them.
00:14:55Since that same argument
00:14:55with police officers
00:14:57and probably
00:14:57the local dog catcher,
00:14:58those are all people
00:14:58who are going to be,
00:15:00prohibited from serving
00:15:00on this commission.
00:15:03And so if you are, let's say
00:15:03you're a gold star widow,
00:15:08you know, your your husband
00:15:08or your wife has just
00:15:09has been killed in combat,
00:15:094 or 5 years ago
00:15:13shooting somebody like that
00:15:13be, like you said, recruited.
00:15:17But, you know, you
00:15:17can recruit them all you want.
00:15:18They are ineligible by the
00:15:18basic text of the amendment.
00:15:22They could have done like
00:15:22Michigan did and carved out
00:15:26and protected those people.
00:15:27But the people who wrote issue
00:15:27one decided not to do that.
00:15:31And of course they would
00:15:31disagree if they were here.
00:15:32But, let's move on here.
00:15:34Members of the commission,
00:15:34such as Governor
00:15:35Mike DeWine,
00:15:36State Auditor Keith Faber,
00:15:37have said the current system
00:15:37does not work well.
00:15:40And the maps, of course,
00:15:40went to the Ohio Supreme
00:15:42Court, ruled
00:15:42unconstitutional seven times.
00:15:44A federal court
00:15:45had to step in to
00:15:45give us maps to use in 2022.
00:15:49I can't imagine that this is
00:15:49working the way that voters
00:15:52want it to work
00:15:53when they voted for it
00:15:53in 2015, 2018.
00:15:56So, I mean, it's not working
00:15:56the way it is now.
00:16:00Yeah.
00:16:00I wonder if you actually did
00:16:00a great job
00:16:01providing
00:16:01some insight on this,
00:16:03the way that the reforms in
00:16:032015 and 2018 were supposed to
00:16:06work was
00:16:06they were supposed to set up,
00:16:08a game
00:16:08that required competition.
00:16:11And so
00:16:12everybody was supposed
00:16:12to sit down
00:16:12at the table and say, listen,
00:16:13if we don't come up
00:16:13with something,
00:16:15this isn't going to work.
00:16:16But as autor Faber explained,
00:16:18that's not what a lot of
00:16:18the Democrats sat down with.
00:16:20They sat down and said,
00:16:20hey, listen,
00:16:22I know we're
00:16:22supposed to do this thing,
00:16:23but we think the courts
00:16:23are a better option for us,
00:16:25and so we're
00:16:25going to go for that.
00:16:27We think that's our best bet.
00:16:28And obviously that's
00:16:28what they did.
00:16:29The courts ruled one way.
00:16:30There was a whole bunch
00:16:30of back and forth.
00:16:32Then in the end,
00:16:33when the federal courts
00:16:33stepped in
00:16:34and said, no, no, no,
00:16:34we're going to do this,
00:16:36then all of a sudden it worked
00:16:36the way it was supposed to.
00:16:39And we had bipartisan
00:16:39unanimous agreement
00:16:42from Republicans
00:16:42and Democrats.
00:16:43Now, I would have been nicer,
00:16:43obviously,
00:16:45if it worked that way
00:16:45from the beginning.
00:16:46And perhaps there are
00:16:47some changes
00:16:48and some future guidance
00:16:48we can get from courts
00:16:50that requires
00:16:50that competition.
00:16:52But that would be, you know,
00:16:54there's always room to improve
00:16:56with any system, especially a
00:16:56system of government. And so
00:16:59hopefully the next time around
00:16:59it would have work that well
00:17:01or hopefully
00:17:01the next time around.
00:17:02If issue one fails,
00:17:02it will work better.
00:17:05I know you can't
00:17:05speak for the legislature,
00:17:07but if indeed issue one does
00:17:07fail,
00:17:10governor DeWine has said
00:17:10that he wants to push forward
00:17:12a plan like they have in Iowa
00:17:12with a commission,
00:17:15and a process
00:17:15like they do in Iowa.
00:17:17Is is that something that
00:17:19the folks who are against
00:17:19issue one would support?
00:17:22I mean,
00:17:23it's a broad coalition,
00:17:23like you
00:17:24said. I can't speak for him,
00:17:26but there's always room
00:17:26to improve.
00:17:28And if Ohioans vote down
00:17:28issue one
00:17:31and still want to make
00:17:32changes, then
00:17:32I think that a lot of people
00:17:33would be happy to make a lot
00:17:33of those changes,
00:17:35O'Connor said last week.
00:17:37The politicians will preserve
00:17:37their own
00:17:39personal power
00:17:39and status in government,
00:17:39and they're going to try
00:17:41to strengthen
00:17:41their party's power.
00:17:43So if that's true,
00:17:43why leave the power
00:17:46to draw the maps
00:17:46in their hand?
00:17:47Well,
00:17:47that what she said is true,
00:17:49but what she said is true
00:17:50because that's
00:17:50what issue one is doing.
00:17:52It's trying to preserve.
00:17:54It's trying to move
00:17:54the goalposts
00:17:55and change the rules.
00:17:55Ohio Democrats
00:17:58haven't been able to win
00:17:58a whole lot lately.
00:17:59And so instead of changing our
00:17:59policies or our candidates,
00:18:03let's just change the rules
00:18:04and maybe we'll get
00:18:05a few more seats in Congress,
00:18:05or maybe we'll get
00:18:07a few more seats in the Ohio
00:18:07Legislature
00:18:09or something like that.
00:18:10But the real reason
00:18:10that politicians should draw
00:18:13the lines is the same reason
00:18:13that politicians should be
00:18:16judges and county
00:18:16commissioners and township
00:18:18trustees, and the auditor
00:18:18and the attorney general.
00:18:21Accountability.
00:18:22If you don't like those things
00:18:22that Mike DeWine is doing
00:18:25as Governor, Keith
00:18:25Faber is doing as auditor,
00:18:27or Mike Stinson
00:18:28was doing as Franklin
00:18:29County auditor,
00:18:29or is going to run out
00:18:31here.
00:18:31of names of elected officials
00:18:33You can vote them
00:18:33out of office.
00:18:34That's
00:18:34literally the bedrock of
00:18:36our constitutional democracy
00:18:37or our constitutional republic
00:18:37that we have.
00:18:39If you don't like the people,
00:18:39throw the bums out, right?
00:18:43But if you can't,
00:18:45then you get unelected,
00:18:45unaccountable
00:18:47people and unelected,
00:18:48unaccountable people
00:18:48throughout history,
00:18:49not just here
00:18:49in the United States.
00:18:51They tend
00:18:51to make not good decisions
00:18:52that people
00:18:52don't like over time.
00:18:54And you've kind of hinted
00:18:54at this, and certainly the
00:18:57no on one campaign has said
00:18:57it pretty directly.
00:19:00This, they feel, is a Democrat
00:19:00power grab.
00:19:03I mean, this will not benefit
00:19:03Democrats
00:19:05any more than it will
00:19:05definitely not
00:19:08benefit Democrats
00:19:08more than Republicans.
00:19:09So how can you say that?
00:19:10Well, it's certainly
00:19:10going to help Democrats.
00:19:12Unless you're a minority.
00:19:14You know,
00:19:15if you're an African American
00:19:15representative,
00:19:16I don't think it's
00:19:16going to help.
00:19:18But what Democrats want to do
00:19:18here, I mean, we don't we
00:19:20it's let's not pretend
00:19:21that we don't know
00:19:21who's supporting, right?
00:19:2230 plus million dollars from
00:19:22out of state and some foreign
00:19:26dark money groups
00:19:26who are giant progressives,
00:19:29Democrats, supporters.
00:19:29They're on one side.
00:19:32So we know why
00:19:32they want to do that.
00:19:34And they want to do that
00:19:34because
00:19:35they would like more seats.
00:19:37They would like to win
00:19:37more elections.
00:19:38Now, they could do that
00:19:381 or 2 ways.
00:19:40They could go
00:19:41the normal route, which is
00:19:41have candidates have policies
00:19:44that people support,
00:19:44get more votes.
00:19:47You know, I think Tim Ryan,
00:19:48you know, former candidate
00:19:49for all sorts of things
00:19:49here in Ohio,
00:19:51has suggested that over
00:19:51many different times.
00:19:54But that's not the way
00:19:54we want to go.
00:19:55We want to change the rules
00:19:57and we want to change the maps
00:19:59and change the people
00:19:59who draw the maps
00:20:01in the hopes that we'll get
00:20:01a few more seats.
00:20:02But I think what you said
00:20:02there is right.
00:20:05It's not going to help them
00:20:06even that much
00:20:06because they keep losing.
00:20:09And so the last six
00:20:09general elections again.
00:20:13Oh 28 Democrats
00:20:13are in statewide elections.
00:20:16And I don't think anybody
00:20:16expects it to get better.
00:20:20I mean, of course,
00:20:21of course they run, Sherrod
00:20:21Brown's won one election,
00:20:23and now that's
00:20:23a federal election.
00:20:24But nobody expects Donald
00:20:26Trump to win
00:20:26by less than he did or I.
00:20:28I think most polls are still
00:20:29showing him
00:20:29winning by 8 or 9 or so.
00:20:31And so
00:20:32although the 2014 election
00:20:32was a little bit close,
00:20:34once we get further out
00:20:34and get rid of that 52%
00:20:37one, it's going to be 64%
00:20:37for Republicans.
00:20:41Either way, unless Democrats
00:20:42change their policies
00:20:42and get elected more.
00:20:45I'm glad you brought up
00:20:45the money issue.
00:20:47You've criticizes and
00:20:47not politicians for the money.
00:20:49About $23 million raised
00:20:49as of the report in August,
00:20:53and only about 16%
00:20:53came from Ohio.
00:20:56Where's your money coming
00:20:56from?
00:20:58Also,
00:20:59not very many places
00:21:00because we don't have
00:21:00that much money,
00:21:01certainly
00:21:01compared to most of them.
00:21:03But most of the money
00:21:03supporting issue one.
00:21:05And again,
00:21:05we're going to be outspent
00:21:06probably 10 to 1
00:21:06and maybe 15 to 1.
00:21:08Most of it is from
00:21:08Ohioans and groups
00:21:11that support Ohioans
00:21:11and things like that.
00:21:12And so it's
00:21:12less of a problem of,
00:21:15hey, where's your money
00:21:15coming from?
00:21:16Because you can see
00:21:16where it lines up.
00:21:18It's for the people
00:21:18that usually support,
00:21:20Republicans
00:21:20and conservative ideas.
00:21:22They tend to support issue
00:21:23one, the Democrats
00:21:23in the dark,
00:21:24money groups that support them
00:21:24or are on the pro side.
00:21:27And so
00:21:27and we know why. We know why.
00:21:29Because the stakes
00:21:29of the election, we can't win.
00:21:32So let's change the rules.
00:21:34There's dark money
00:21:34on your side though, too.
00:21:36Listen, dark money,
00:21:36dark money.
00:21:38It sounds so scary,
00:21:38but, listen,
00:21:42500 workforce
00:21:42perfectly legal in Ohio.
00:21:45In state elections
00:21:45and federal elections,
00:21:47both sides use them.
00:21:48The term dark
00:21:48money is actually, you know,
00:21:50it's probably silly.
00:21:51And I will agree
00:21:51to stop using it forever
00:21:53if the Democrats will too.
00:21:55Let's talk
00:21:55a little bit about the ballot
00:21:56summary language
00:21:56that was adopted
00:21:57by the Republicans
00:21:57on the ballot board.
00:21:59The title says issue
00:21:59one would, quote,
00:22:00create an appointed
00:22:00redistricting commission
00:22:02not elected by or subject
00:22:04to removal
00:22:04by the voters of the state,
00:22:05which is what you've been
00:22:05saying
00:22:07throughout this interview,
00:22:08and also that it would, quote,
00:22:10establish a new taxpayer
00:22:10funded
00:22:11commission of appointees
00:22:11required
00:22:13to gerrymander
00:22:13the boundaries of state,
00:22:15legislative
00:22:15and congressional districts
00:22:16to favor
00:22:17the two largest political
00:22:17parties in the state of Ohio,
00:22:19Democratic Supreme Court
00:22:19Justice Jennifer
00:22:21Brunner wrote in her dissent
00:22:21over the lawsuit
00:22:23over that language
00:22:24that it is
00:22:25perhaps the most stunningly
00:22:25stilted ballot language
00:22:27that Ohio voters have ever
00:22:27seen.
00:22:29Is this language
00:22:29really fair language?
00:22:31It's accurate
00:22:31and it's truthful and less
00:22:34than some of the folks
00:22:34who support issue
00:22:35one might not like it,
00:22:37but Partizan preference
00:22:37is being the one
00:22:39and only thing
00:22:39that we care about.
00:22:41If issue one passes,
00:22:42the only way
00:22:43to get Republican districts
00:22:43and Democrat districts
00:22:46in a state
00:22:46like Ohio is to draw districts
00:22:49intentionally to favor
00:22:49one party or the other.
00:22:52And that is the definition
00:22:52of gerrymandering.
00:22:56And so, yes, issue
00:22:57one will remove
00:22:58the gerrymandering protections
00:22:59that we voted for in Ohio
00:22:59in 2015 and 2018,
00:23:02and it will replace it
00:23:02with mandatory gerrymander.
00:23:05I know, I suppose, that the,
00:23:07the Democrats
00:23:07think, well, it's better
00:23:08gerrymandering, but
00:23:08it's requiring gerrymandering.
00:23:12O'Connor said last week
00:23:13she thinks the language
00:23:13is unconstitutional.
00:23:16Well,
00:23:16I would,
00:23:16I would tell the former chief
00:23:18justice
00:23:18who's not on the Supreme Court
00:23:20anymore, that the majority
00:23:21of the Supreme Court
00:23:21disagreed with her.
00:23:22And so it is constitutional.
00:23:24That's what the Supreme Court
00:23:24said.
00:23:26The conventional wisdom is
00:23:26when voters are confused,
00:23:28they either don't vote
00:23:28or they vote no.
00:23:30Are you counting
00:23:30on that confusion?
00:23:32And those no votes to come
00:23:34from that, rather
00:23:34than from people
00:23:35who are truly opposed
00:23:35to issue one?
00:23:37I hope that people
00:23:38read the ballot summary
00:23:38and I hope
00:23:40they read the ballot
00:23:40language and listen.
00:23:41It's it's it's a lot of words.
00:23:43Three pages.
00:23:44Yeah, it's three pages long.
00:23:45And listen, if they put more,
00:23:45it could have been longer.
00:23:47And so I hope every time
00:23:47that every voter carefully
00:23:50considers each candidate
00:23:51and they carefully
00:23:51consider the actual language
00:23:54and they make an informed
00:23:54decision,
00:23:55you know, honestly,
00:23:55though, people are busy
00:23:57and sometimes
00:23:57that doesn't happen.
00:23:59And so I don't think
00:23:59anybody's
00:24:00counting on all the people
00:24:00are going to just vote
00:24:01no because they don't like it.
00:24:03I think people are going
00:24:03to read the summary and say,
00:24:05I don't think that sounds so
00:24:06good,
00:24:06and I hope they do vote now.
00:24:07And your support
00:24:07is Republicans.
00:24:10I mean, issue one supports
00:24:10the yes side
00:24:14has touted being bipartisan.
00:24:15For instance, Maureen
00:24:15O'Connor is a Republican.
00:24:19It feels like as they are
00:24:19party to fight and divided,
00:24:22so to speak, with you
00:24:23having all Republicans
00:24:24on your team,
00:24:25that maybe it's Republicans
00:24:26just trying to keep control
00:24:26of the process. Sure.
00:24:28There's been some bipartisan
00:24:28opposition as well.
00:24:30I mean, look,
00:24:30just the other day,
00:24:31we saw, Michelle Reynolds,
00:24:31who's a,
00:24:34an African-American
00:24:34Republican,
00:24:36and she had a press conference
00:24:36with,
00:24:38I'm going to forget his name.
00:24:39I'm sorry,
00:24:39but he was a Democrat
00:24:39from Cleveland, John Barnes,
00:24:42thank you very much.
00:24:43And so they both
00:24:45came together and said,
00:24:45we don't like this.
00:24:46And again,
00:24:46let's go back to Michigan,
00:24:46that state up north
00:24:48once again,
00:24:49their their congressional,
00:24:49the African-American
00:24:53congressional caucus up there,
00:24:54they didn't like it
00:24:54and they didn't like it
00:24:55because when issue once
00:24:55when the
00:24:58when the same
00:24:59redistricting commission
00:25:00passed up there,
00:25:00they saw fewer
00:25:02African-American
00:25:02representatives.
00:25:03You know, Detroit
00:25:03is a majority black city.
00:25:06And they had their
00:25:08the number of African-American
00:25:08representatives
00:25:09shrunk down with issue one.
00:25:11And so I think
00:25:11a lot of the Black caucus
00:25:13members on both sides
00:25:13are probably looking at this
00:25:15and going, Cleveland,
00:25:15Columbus, Cincinnati.
00:25:18The only way
00:25:18to get this forced
00:25:18gerrymandering is to carve up
00:25:22some of these seats
00:25:22that have been traditionally,
00:25:24African-American
00:25:24or minority representatives.
00:25:26some of the bipartisan
00:25:26And so that's why
00:25:28opposition has been there
00:25:28on the Republican
00:25:30or on the no side as well.
00:25:31and again, we had the. Yes.
00:25:33On issue one side last week.
00:25:35You can see that interview
00:25:36in our archives
00:25:36at State news.org.
00:25:39And that is it for this week
00:25:39for my colleagues
00:25:40at the Statehouse News
00:25:40Bureau of Ohio Public Media.
00:25:42Thanks for watching.
00:25:44Please check out our website
00:25:44at State news.org
00:25:46or find us online by searching
00:25:46State of Ohio Show.
00:25:49You can also hear more
00:25:49from the Bureau
00:25:51on our podcast,
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Note : Transcripts are compiled from uncorrected captions