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The State of Ohio

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Prosecutors make their cases for and against legislation on the death penalty, guns and more. A bipartisan bill could allow prescribed pediatric extended care or PPEC centers, which can be paid for by Medicaid. Jo Ingles reports. Studio guest is Lou Tobin of the Ohio Prosecuting Attorneys Assn.

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00:00:00	Support
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00:00:38	No news isn't
00:00:38	good for the hundreds.
00:00:41	Still working
00:00:41	at the Chillicothe Paper Mill.
00:00:43	Prosecutors
00:00:43	make their cases for
00:00:45	and against the death penalty.
00:00:46	Guns and more.
00:00:48	I'm Joe Ingles in Fort
00:00:48	Mitchell, Kentucky,
00:00:51	where
00:00:51	we're looking at a program
00:00:52	for medically challenged
00:00:52	children
00:00:54	that Ohio doesn't have.
00:00:56	some lawmakers are trying
00:00:56	to change that.
00:00:59	this week
00:00:59	on the state of Ohio.
00:01:19	Welcome to the state of Ohio.
00:01:21	I'm Karen Kasler.
00:01:22	Many families in Ohio struggle
00:01:24	to find affordable childcare.
00:01:25	The Ohio Chamber of Commerce
00:01:26	has a lack of childcare
00:01:26	options.
00:01:29	Cost nearly $5.5
00:01:29	billion in lost
00:01:31	economic activity
00:01:31	in Ohio each year.
00:01:34	But for families
00:01:34	who have children
00:01:35	with complex medical needs,
00:01:37	childcare centers are often
00:01:37	not an option at all.
00:01:41	A bipartisan bill could change
00:01:41	that by allowing
00:01:43	for prescribed pediatric
00:01:43	extended care or PPC centers,
00:01:48	which could be paid
00:01:48	for by Medicaid.
00:01:50	They're available
00:01:50	in Kentucky now.
00:01:52	State House correspondent
00:01:52	Joe Ingles
00:01:53	traveled there
00:01:53	to check one out.
00:01:55	They say.
00:02:00	At first glance,
00:02:00	you might think this is
00:02:02	an ordinary daycare playroom,
00:02:02	but it's not.
00:02:05	It's part of the prescribed
00:02:05	pediatric child care facility
00:02:10	at Easterseals Redwood in Fort
00:02:10	Mitchell, Kentucky,
00:02:14	where children with serious
00:02:14	medical conditions
00:02:17	can receive treatment
00:02:17	and care on site.
00:02:20	Children like four year old
00:02:20	Boone Studer.
00:02:23	He's got a rare genetic
00:02:25	skin disorder
00:02:25	called epidermolysis bullosa.
00:02:28	He doesn't produce
00:02:28	enough protein in his skin
00:02:28	called collagen seven,
00:02:31	so his skin is extremely
00:02:31	fragile.
00:02:33	It shears or blisters
00:02:33	with, any type
00:02:37	of, hard contact or,
00:02:37	friction.
00:02:41	And, it also affects
00:02:41	the inside of his body,
00:02:43	his mouth, his esophagus, his
00:02:43	GI tract.
00:02:46	And,
00:02:46	yeah, he's a he's a warrior.
00:02:51	Four year old Bradley
00:02:52	Biegel of Hebron, Kentucky,
00:02:52	also goes to this child care.
00:02:56	He has down syndrome.
00:02:58	He has a feeding tube.
00:03:01	He gets therapies.
00:03:03	He gets speech.
00:03:05	Where are you going?
00:03:07	Chevonne
00:03:07	Magnuson says she's lucky
00:03:09	that her son
00:03:09	George is one of three slots
00:03:13	available to Ohio kids
00:03:13	in this day care.
00:03:16	He was getting care
00:03:17	at Cincinnati Children's
00:03:17	Hospital before coming here.
00:03:21	He doesn't
00:03:21	have a corpus callosum,
00:03:22	which is the part of the brain
00:03:22	that you know
00:03:25	that communicates
00:03:25	the two lobes together.
00:03:29	He also has cerebral palsy
00:03:31	and some hormone things and
00:03:31	a lot of development issues.
00:03:35	So right now he's learning
00:03:38	how to set up and walk
00:03:38	in his gay trainer.
00:03:41	The parents say their children
00:03:41	learn a lot here,
00:03:44	especially since the center
00:03:46	also accepts typical healthy
00:03:46	children.
00:03:49	There's not a greater
00:03:49	motivator for a child
00:03:52	who is unable to walk
00:03:54	or to be in a classroom
00:03:54	with five, six,
00:03:57	seven other kids their age
00:03:57	walking and climbing.
00:04:00	A child is not able
00:04:00	to use a spoon,
00:04:02	and they're sitting around
00:04:02	a table
00:04:04	while their friends are using
00:04:04	a spoon.
00:04:06	Man, they're ready to try
00:04:06	that spoon now.
00:04:08	Yet in Ohio,
00:04:08	most medically fragile
00:04:11	children
00:04:11	don't get that experience.
00:04:14	Republican representative
00:04:14	Cindy Abrams is co-sponsor
00:04:17	of a bipartisan bill
00:04:17	that would change that.
00:04:20	She says many of these kids
00:04:20	spend a lot of time
00:04:22	in hospitals
00:04:22	because there isn't an option
00:04:25	for specialized care
00:04:25	outside of that setting.
00:04:29	Who on earth would say no
00:04:29	to granting a child to go to,
00:04:35	you know, a place
00:04:35	during the day to be educated,
00:04:38	you know,
00:04:38	get all of their medical
00:04:38	needs met,
00:04:40	and then go back home
00:04:40	to sleep in their own bed.
00:04:43	Who would say no to that?
00:04:44	The bill she sponsored
00:04:44	with Democratic Representative
00:04:47	Rachel Baker would
00:04:47	create licenses for prescribed
00:04:51	pediatric extended
00:04:51	care facilities like this
00:04:54	and define them as prescribed
00:04:54	Medicaid services.
00:04:58	They'd have nurses on staff
00:04:58	and medical
00:05:00	facilities on site,
00:05:02	and would provide daycare
00:05:03	for medically fragile kids
00:05:03	until they go to school
00:05:07	and before
00:05:07	and after school care, too.
00:05:10	The bill passed the House
00:05:10	unanimously
00:05:12	and is awaiting action
00:05:12	in the Senate.
00:05:15	These centers have been funded
00:05:15	and exist in many other
00:05:18	states, and most states
00:05:18	have found a cost savings.
00:05:21	And the reason is
00:05:22	that most of these
00:05:22	kids are eligible
00:05:24	and get Medicaid waivers
00:05:26	to pay for one on one
00:05:26	nursing at home.
00:05:27	So if we look at the cost
00:05:29	of having a one on one
00:05:29	nurse nurse,
00:05:32	you know, all day, all night
00:05:32	at your house
00:05:35	for all these kids
00:05:35	versus kids
00:05:37	being able to come to a center
00:05:37	where multiple nurses work
00:05:40	and can take care of
00:05:40	lots of kids.
00:05:42	That's the savings.
00:05:43	Ohio's Medicaid
00:05:45	director says there's a lot
00:05:45	happening with Medicaid
00:05:48	at the local, state,
00:05:48	and federal levels right now.
00:05:51	She says she doesn't know
00:05:51	how much this will cost,
00:05:54	and added,
00:05:55	a lot will depend on
00:05:55	how it would be implemented.
00:05:58	You know, there's no question
00:05:58	about the need.
00:06:01	There is concern
00:06:01	about the cost.
00:06:04	And certainly,
00:06:04	you know, any other options
00:06:08	that we look to explore.
00:06:11	You know, the general Assembly
00:06:11	wants to be sure
00:06:14	that we're going to save money
00:06:14	in the process, rightfully.
00:06:18	Then Studer says there is
00:06:18	another savings to consider.
00:06:22	Being able to put Boone in
00:06:22	child care gives his wife
00:06:25	a break and allows her to work
00:06:25	a part time job.
00:06:29	It saved our family
00:06:29	and and it gave me.
00:06:32	It gave my child
00:06:32	a chance to be a kid.
00:06:35	Some parents of medically
00:06:35	challenged children
00:06:38	in Ohio say they're hoping
00:06:38	this bill will pass soon
00:06:42	so they can have facilities
00:06:42	like this one in Ohio.
00:06:46	Joe Ingles,
00:06:46	statehouse news bureau.
00:06:49	Here's an update to a story
00:06:50	reported by our colleague
00:06:50	Sarah Donaldson
00:06:52	And it's not the news
00:06:52	many were hoping to hear.
00:06:55	The private equity firm
00:06:55	HIG capital says it will cease
00:06:58	all production at the Pixel
00:06:58	Specialty Solutions paper
00:07:01	mill in Chillicothe
00:07:03	in less than two weeks,
00:07:04	leaving hundreds of Ohioans
00:07:04	out of work at a plant
00:07:07	that's been running
00:07:07	for over a century.
00:07:09	Governor
00:07:09	Mike DeWine says the state
00:07:11	has been trying to help
00:07:11	sell the plant, but so far,
00:07:14	no bytes.
00:07:15	we have, been aggressive,
00:07:18	particularly through jobs
00:07:18	Ohio JP initiative,
00:07:22	to bring companies
00:07:22	in to look at this site.
00:07:27	So far,
00:07:27	we've we've got no interest.
00:07:29	So I don't have anything
00:07:29	good to report.
00:07:32	We will continue to do that.
00:07:33	But I don't have any,
00:07:33	you know, any anything
00:07:37	that would, give us
00:07:37	any options at this point.
00:07:40	But we're still open
00:07:40	to bringing companies in.
00:07:43	We've brought
00:07:43	thousands of them in. And,
00:07:46	you know, we will continue
00:07:46	to show that that site.
00:07:50	Earlier
00:07:50	this year, Republican U.S.
00:07:52	Senator Bernie Marino said
00:07:53	he convinced AIG to delay
00:07:53	shuttering until December.
00:07:57	AIG later confirmed its August
00:07:57	10th closure
00:08:00	and a government mandated warn
00:08:00	mass layoff notice.
00:08:04	More than 700 workers
00:08:04	will be unemployed
00:08:06	unless an 11th
00:08:06	hour buyer is found.
00:08:09	The budget was one of the top
00:08:09	ten bills to watch
00:08:12	for many statewide interests,
00:08:14	including Ohio's
00:08:14	prosecuting attorneys.
00:08:16	But the death penalty drugs,
00:08:16	including marijuana,
00:08:19	gun regulations, elections law
00:08:21	and even the definition of
00:08:21	burglary are among the issues
00:08:24	that have prosecutors
00:08:24	attention.
00:08:26	I talked about some of those
00:08:27	with the executive director
00:08:27	of the state's
00:08:29	prosecuting attorneys
00:08:29	association.
00:08:31	So let's start
00:08:31	with the death penalty.
00:08:32	We have not seen an execution
00:08:32	in Ohio since 2018, though.
00:08:35	Capital punishment
00:08:35	is still on the books.
00:08:37	In Ohio, there are 113
00:08:37	men on death row.
00:08:41	There are three bills
00:08:41	that would abolish
00:08:41	the death penalty.
00:08:43	We're still waiting on one
00:08:44	that was supposed to abolish
00:08:44	the death penalty
00:08:45	and be tied
00:08:45	with abortion as well.
00:08:48	And the attorney general's
00:08:48	annual capital crimes report,
00:08:51	AG Dave Yost, wrote that
00:08:52	there's been no change
00:08:52	in the death penalty in Ohio,
00:08:55	except the killers
00:08:55	got a year older.
00:08:57	And he also wrote, there needs
00:08:57	to be some real progress.
00:08:59	Until that happens,
00:08:59	Ohio cannot fulfill
00:09:01	its promise of justice.
00:09:01	Do you agree?
00:09:04	What do you want to see
00:09:04	happening
00:09:05	with the death penalty
00:09:05	in Ohio?
00:09:08	Well,
00:09:09	our association
00:09:10	still thinks
00:09:10	that there's a place
00:09:10	for the death penalty
00:09:11	and a need
00:09:11	for the death penalty.
00:09:13	And we think that enforcement
00:09:13	of it needs to be resumed,
00:09:17	delay that there has been over
00:09:17	and that all of this undue
00:09:21	the last six and a half years
00:09:23	is really unfair to
00:09:23	the victims of these crimes.
00:09:26	It's really unfair
00:09:26	to the communities
00:09:27	where these crimes
00:09:28	occurred, to the loved ones
00:09:28	and families of the victims.
00:09:31	And so we need to find a path
00:09:31	to justice for these people.
00:09:35	The issue needs
00:09:35	to be resolved.
00:09:37	We need to find a way forward.
00:09:39	You know,
00:09:39	I think the public public
00:09:42	polling on the death penalty
00:09:42	supports our position on this.
00:09:45	I think most polling,
00:09:47	traditional
00:09:47	polling will show you that
00:09:48	there's at least more than 50%
00:09:48	of the public supports
00:09:52	having a death penalty.
00:09:53	But I think
00:09:53	when you start to ask them
00:09:54	about the specific types
00:09:54	of crimes that people commit
00:09:57	that lead to the death
00:09:57	penalty,
00:09:59	public support
00:09:59	gets even higher.
00:10:00	And so when you start
00:10:00	to ask them
00:10:01	about the murder of children,
00:10:03	the murder of police
00:10:03	officers,
00:10:06	multiple murders
00:10:06	or acts of terrorism, support
00:10:06	for the death
00:10:08	penalty is, you know,
00:10:08	in the 70 to 80% range.
00:10:11	But you do have
00:10:11	some conservatives
00:10:13	who say it costs
00:10:13	a lot of money
00:10:15	to go through the death
00:10:15	penalty process
00:10:17	because each one of those
00:10:17	people
00:10:18	gets a full appeals process
00:10:18	all the way up to the Ohio
00:10:21	Supreme Court.
00:10:21	Sometimes in the US
00:10:21	Supreme Court.
00:10:23	Yeah, it is expensive.
00:10:25	It is more expensive
00:10:25	than, a traditional,
00:10:27	murder trial, a life
00:10:27	without parole sentence.
00:10:30	But we want to make sure
00:10:30	that we're providing people
00:10:33	with super due process
00:10:33	because death is final.
00:10:36	And, you know,
00:10:36	we have a justice system that,
00:10:40	I think, fortunately, death
00:10:43	sentences are sort rarely,
00:10:43	they're imposed rarely.
00:10:46	And they really are reserved
00:10:46	for people
00:10:49	who have sacrificed the right
00:10:49	to be in a civilized society.
00:10:52	And so I think they spent
00:10:52	the expense is is worth it.
00:10:55	You mentioned
00:10:56	the death sentences are sought
00:10:56	rarely and opposed rarely.
00:10:59	Very rare in Ohio,
00:11:00	it seems like
00:11:00	in the last couple of years.
00:11:02	Is that because there haven't
00:11:02	been any executions
00:11:05	carried out?
00:11:06	Yeah,
00:11:06	I think that is part of it.
00:11:08	I think prosecutors
00:11:08	are probably more reluctant
00:11:10	to seek a death sentence
00:11:10	these days,
00:11:12	because they don't want
00:11:13	to put the victim's families
00:11:13	through, all the uncertainty
00:11:16	that's going on.
00:11:17	And I think that's
00:11:17	another reason that we need
00:11:18	to find
00:11:18	a path forward on this issue.
00:11:20	I want to ask you
00:11:20	about a bill.
00:11:21	It's known
00:11:22	as the Second Amendment
00:11:22	Protection Act,
00:11:23	which prosecutors
00:11:23	have spoken out against.
00:11:26	It would prevent
00:11:26	federal agents
00:11:26	from taking Ohioans guns.
00:11:28	It got some changes
00:11:28	in the last few weeks,
00:11:30	but you, along with the Ohio
00:11:30	Association
00:11:32	of Chiefs of Police,
00:11:32	still have concerns
00:11:34	about how it would affect
00:11:36	cooperation
00:11:36	with federal officials efforts
00:11:38	to go after violent criminals.
00:11:40	What are your concerns
00:11:40	about this particular.
00:11:41	Yeah, well,
00:11:43	I think first of all,
00:11:43	you know,
00:11:46	protecting Second Amendment
00:11:47	rights is a totally legitimate
00:11:47	policy goal.
00:11:50	And I appreciate the fact
00:11:52	that the sponsor
00:11:52	of this
00:11:53	new version of the bill
00:11:53	has tried to make
00:11:54	some changes to it
00:11:55	that he thinks alleviates
00:11:55	some of the issues
00:11:57	that we brought up
00:11:57	in the last General Assembly.
00:12:00	But but the
00:12:00	reality is this this has been
00:12:03	this is ostensibly
00:12:03	about what you said.
00:12:05	It's ostensibly
00:12:06	about preventing
00:12:06	federal officials
00:12:08	from coming to Ohio
00:12:08	and taking people's guns
00:12:10	and from using our state
00:12:10	resources to do that.
00:12:13	But in practice,
00:12:13	it goes way beyond that,
00:12:15	and it's
00:12:15	going to proactively interfere
00:12:18	with voluntary
00:12:18	cooperative efforts
00:12:20	that we have
00:12:20	with federal officials
00:12:22	to investigate and prosecute
00:12:24	violent criminals
00:12:24	who are using guns.
00:12:28	And, you know,
00:12:28	I can't express enough
00:12:31	how dangerous
00:12:31	and how foolish that is.
00:12:34	These are relationships
00:12:34	that our law enforcement
00:12:36	wants to have
00:12:36	with the federal government
00:12:38	because it promotes
00:12:38	the safety of our communities.
00:12:41	And is there
00:12:41	a threat of this happening?
00:12:44	I mean, we have a Republican
00:12:46	White House,
00:12:46	a Republican Congress.
00:12:48	Is there a threat
00:12:49	of what the Second Amendment
00:12:49	Protection Act
00:12:52	is trying to prevent
00:12:52	from actually happening?
00:12:54	I would say certainly
00:12:54	not right now.
00:12:57	I want to ask you about,
00:12:57	this definition of burglary.
00:13:00	There was an Ohio
00:13:00	Supreme Court case
00:13:01	in which a man who stole, he
00:13:03	literally walked into a garage
00:13:03	in front of the homeowner,
00:13:06	stole a leaf blower
00:13:06	out of the garage
00:13:08	in front of the homeowner.
00:13:10	And, this came to the Ohio
00:13:10	Supreme Court,
00:13:12	which said that burglary
00:13:12	requires the use of stealth,
00:13:16	force or deception
00:13:18	into a structure with the
00:13:18	intent of committing a crime.
00:13:20	So this wasn't burglary,
00:13:20	is that right?
00:13:23	We think it was burglary.
00:13:25	Frankly, we think the Supreme
00:13:25	Court got the decision wrong.
00:13:28	There was evidence presented
00:13:28	in this case that the
00:13:32	the offender drove
00:13:32	by his victim's house.
00:13:35	You noticed the open
00:13:35	garage door.
00:13:37	He had a noisy car.
00:13:38	He turns the car around,
00:13:38	he parks up the street,
00:13:40	and he walks back down
00:13:40	and walks
00:13:42	into this guy's garage
00:13:42	and takes a leaf blower.
00:13:44	And so there is evidence
00:13:44	presented that him
00:13:46	parking the car
00:13:47	up the street
00:13:47	because he knew it was noisy,
00:13:49	he knew it was more likely
00:13:49	to draw attention.
00:13:51	That was the stealth,
00:13:51	and we don't we don't think
00:13:55	appellate court
00:13:56	should be replacing
00:13:56	their own factual opinions
00:13:58	with,
00:13:58	with the decisions of juries.
00:14:00	But, you know,
00:14:00	at the end of the day,
00:14:02	the decision is what it is.
00:14:03	We think the law
00:14:03	should be changed
00:14:05	to get rid of the requirement
00:14:06	that there be for stealth
00:14:06	or deception.
00:14:08	Our burglary laws are about
00:14:08	protecting the sanctity
00:14:11	of the home and, recognizing
00:14:11	the increased danger
00:14:16	when people enter the home
00:14:16	through any means
00:14:19	with whatever their intent is.
00:14:21	And so we, we think people
00:14:21	would be shocked to know
00:14:24	that somebody could do
00:14:24	what they did
00:14:26	with what this guy did
00:14:26	in the Bertram case
00:14:27	and walk away
00:14:27	with a misdemeanor trespass.
00:14:30	I want to ask you
00:14:30	about marijuana.
00:14:31	There's been obviously the,
00:14:34	voter approved
00:14:34	law that went into effect,
00:14:36	but there's been talk
00:14:36	of changing that law.
00:14:38	What what's it been like
00:14:38	to prosecute cases
00:14:41	related to marijuana
00:14:42	and keep up with everything
00:14:42	that's going on with that?
00:14:46	We support some
00:14:46	legislative action on this.
00:14:48	You know, I think we would
00:14:48	like to see the number of home
00:14:51	grow plants reduced from 12
00:14:51	at least to six.
00:14:55	And I think we need to see,
00:14:55	some additional statutory
00:14:58	regulation on how,
00:15:02	in particular,
00:15:02	edibles are produced
00:15:03	and marketed to children.
00:15:05	They shouldn't be produced
00:15:05	and marketed in ways
00:15:07	that are attractive to kids.
00:15:09	But, overall,
00:15:10	I would say
00:15:10	it has gotten a lot
00:15:12	more difficult
00:15:12	to prosecute marijuana cases.
00:15:14	There's there's a huge delay,
00:15:14	even in testing
00:15:18	whether something is marijuana
00:15:18	versus hemp.
00:15:22	At the attorney
00:15:23	at BCI
00:15:23	and at the attorney
00:15:23	general's office,
00:15:25	just because there's
00:15:25	so much product around.
00:15:27	Obviously there are
00:15:27	new challenges with, proving
00:15:32	whether somebody
00:15:33	illegally
00:15:33	purchased the marijuana
00:15:35	or illegally
00:15:35	purchased the marijuana now.
00:15:37	So it has created a variety
00:15:37	of challenges
00:15:39	for prosecutors
00:15:39	and for law enforcement.
00:15:41	I want to turn to, juvenile
00:15:41	justice.
00:15:43	Governor Mike DeWine
00:15:44	vetoed a provision
00:15:44	of the state budget
00:15:46	that would have transferred
00:15:46	youth offenders convicted in
00:15:48	adult court to the Department
00:15:48	of Youth Services, he said.
00:15:50	That would have force kids
00:15:50	who've committed
00:15:52	lower level crimes
00:15:52	to, in his words, interact
00:15:55	with incredibly dangerous
00:15:55	offenders.
00:15:58	Is that a veto
00:15:58	that you support?
00:16:01	Oppose?
00:16:02	What do you think
00:16:02	should happen to these kids
00:16:04	who are tried in adult court
00:16:04	but they are still kids?
00:16:08	Yeah,
00:16:08	I certainly I don't disagree
00:16:10	with the governor's veto,
00:16:10	that juveniles
00:16:14	who are tried as adults
00:16:14	and are sentenced to
00:16:16	prison are housed in separate
00:16:16	units at DRC.
00:16:18	Anyway,
00:16:19	so I don't think that
00:16:19	there is a huge impact on them
00:16:23	until they,
00:16:23	until they turn 18 in
00:16:25	terms of whether their house
00:16:25	that this or DRC.
00:16:28	But look, I think
00:16:28	overall juvenile crime is
00:16:33	a lot of our prosecutors
00:16:34	will tell you
00:16:34	is the number one criminal
00:16:35	justice issue they face
00:16:35	in their communities.
00:16:37	I think there's a huge lack
00:16:37	of accountability
00:16:40	for some repeat juvenile
00:16:41	offenders, even even violent
00:16:41	repeat juvenile offenders.
00:16:46	You can see this
00:16:46	in the stories
00:16:47	about all the cars
00:16:47	that are stolen
00:16:49	by the choirboys
00:16:49	and other groups of kids.
00:16:52	All the vandalism that occurs
00:16:52	in the Break-Ins of cars.
00:16:55	And so I think we
00:16:55	need, at the end of the day,
00:17:01	kids who are committing
00:17:01	these things and doing it
00:17:02	over and over and over again
00:17:02	without any consequences.
00:17:05	Not only is it bad
00:17:05	for the community, it's bad
00:17:08	for the juvenile themself,
00:17:08	because what's happening is
00:17:11	they're learning
00:17:11	that there aren't consequences
00:17:13	for their actions,
00:17:13	and eventually
00:17:14	they're committing
00:17:14	an aggravated robbery
00:17:16	or some sort
00:17:16	of a homicide offense,
00:17:18	and they are transferred
00:17:18	to adult court
00:17:20	and they're facing
00:17:20	serious time.
00:17:22	And so we think we need
00:17:23	to change the incentives
00:17:23	for juvenile judges
00:17:26	to, you know,
00:17:26	we're not talking about
00:17:27	locking up the locking up kids
00:17:27	and throwing away the key.
00:17:30	We're not talking about
00:17:30	transferring everybody
00:17:32	to adult court,
00:17:33	but some additional
00:17:33	accountability
00:17:35	when we have
00:17:35	these repeat crimes.
00:17:37	There is this balancing act,
00:17:37	though.
00:17:38	When kids are in the juvenile
00:17:38	justice system,
00:17:41	there's the emphasis
00:17:41	on rehabilitation,
00:17:43	whereas in the adult court
00:17:43	system
00:17:44	there's a little bit
00:17:44	more punishment.
00:17:46	And so you're trying to
00:17:46	balance that out, aren't you?
00:17:49	Yes. And there does
00:17:49	need to be a balance.
00:17:51	And there's
00:17:51	there are absolutely benefits
00:17:51	to keeping kids
00:17:54	in the juvenile
00:17:54	justice system.
00:17:55	You know, up
00:17:55	to a certain point,
00:17:57	and there are
00:17:57	absolutely benefits
00:17:59	to keeping a lot of kids
00:17:59	in a community
00:18:01	setting on probation,
00:18:01	up to a certain point.
00:18:05	But when you have
00:18:07	when you have kids
00:18:07	whose the seriousness of
00:18:09	their offenses are escalated
00:18:11	and they're being arrested
00:18:13	and released the next day
00:18:13	or within a few days,
00:18:15	and they're going back out
00:18:15	and doing it again.
00:18:17	You've described this
00:18:17	as a revolving door,
00:18:19	as a revolving door,
00:18:19	or catch and release.
00:18:21	It there should be some
00:18:21	detention and some consequence
00:18:25	for that.
00:18:27	Because otherwise
00:18:28	you're putting the kid at risk
00:18:28	and you're
00:18:30	putting the community
00:18:30	at risk of greater harm.
00:18:32	You and Secretary of State
00:18:32	Frank La Roche had a
00:18:34	prickly public disagreement
00:18:34	last year
00:18:36	when he accused
00:18:36	local prosecutors
00:18:38	of languishing
00:18:39	and going after 633
00:18:39	cases of alleged voter fraud.
00:18:42	You defended those
00:18:43	prosecutors, saying the cases
00:18:43	often lacked minimal evidence
00:18:46	to even pursue an indictment,
00:18:46	much less get a conviction.
00:18:50	Governor
00:18:50	DeWine vetoed a provision
00:18:52	in the budget
00:18:52	on an election integrity
00:18:54	unit, and the requirement
00:18:54	that prosecutors
00:18:56	must take action
00:18:56	within a year.
00:18:58	You had concerns about a bill
00:19:00	that would require that action
00:19:00	within a year. Yeah.
00:19:02	So what we
00:19:04	we support what
00:19:04	the governor did in his veto.
00:19:06	He didn't veto the election
00:19:08	integrity
00:19:08	Unit in its entirety.
00:19:09	So there is going to be
00:19:09	the statutory entity
00:19:12	and the Secretary
00:19:12	of State's office.
00:19:13	That's going to be charged
00:19:13	with receiving, investigating,
00:19:16	allegations of elections,
00:19:16	fraud.
00:19:18	The two things
00:19:18	that the governor vetoed
00:19:20	were the two things
00:19:20	that really were
00:19:22	the biggest concerns to us.
00:19:23	One was this idea
00:19:24	that if a county
00:19:24	prosecutor declines
00:19:27	to prosecute
00:19:27	one of these cases,
00:19:29	the attorney general
00:19:29	would be able to review
00:19:30	that and come
00:19:30	to his own conclusion.
00:19:33	The attorney general's
00:19:33	never been like
00:19:35	an appellate reviewing body
00:19:35	for prosecutor
00:19:37	charging decisions in Ohio
00:19:37	one and two
00:19:40	that created the possibility
00:19:40	of forum shopping.
00:19:42	So you don't like
00:19:42	the conclusion
00:19:43	that the county prosecutor
00:19:43	comes to you?
00:19:45	Take it to a different entity
00:19:46	and see if he comes
00:19:46	to a different conclusion.
00:19:49	And then secondly,
00:19:49	the expectation from,
00:19:52	the other thing
00:19:52	that was vetoed
00:19:54	was that prosecutors
00:19:54	would pursue these cases
00:19:57	and seek indictments
00:19:58	based on a minimal level
00:19:58	of, of evidence,
00:20:01	something that's enough to in
00:20:01	and up
00:20:03	to obtain the indictment,
00:20:03	but not enough
00:20:06	it would be to obtain
00:20:06	a conviction.
00:20:08	And so prosecutors
00:20:09	are ethically obligated
00:20:09	to only present things
00:20:12	to a grand jury
00:20:12	and only proceed to trial
00:20:14	if they're reasonably
00:20:14	confident
00:20:16	that there's
00:20:16	going to be evidence
00:20:18	beyond a reasonable doubt
00:20:18	to obtain a conviction.
00:20:20	And there was language
00:20:20	in there that was basically
00:20:24	requiring us
00:20:24	to seek an indictment
00:20:26	before
00:20:26	we were assured of that.
00:20:27	So this whole idea
00:20:27	that prosecutors
00:20:29	could indict a ham sandwich
00:20:29	if they wanted to,
00:20:31	you hold yourself
00:20:31	to a higher standard.
00:20:33	I would say that's not true,
00:20:33	that they could,
00:20:35	but ethically,
00:20:35	they would not do that.
00:20:38	The the last thing I'll say
00:20:38	about that is, you know,
00:20:40	we totally agree
00:20:40	with the Secretary of State
00:20:43	that these offenses
00:20:43	need to be taken seriously.
00:20:45	There are
00:20:45	a small number of them,
00:20:47	but there are a small number
00:20:47	of other types of crimes,
00:20:49	and prosecutors
00:20:49	need to prosecute those two.
00:20:53	Election integrity is real.
00:20:55	We need to be sensitive
00:20:55	to election fraud.
00:20:57	Voters don't like it.
00:20:59	And I'm optimistic
00:20:59	that the governor has struck
00:21:03	a good balance
00:21:03	between what we wanted
00:21:05	and what the secretary
00:21:05	of state wanted,
00:21:06	and then
00:21:06	we can have a collaborative
00:21:06	effort going forward.
00:21:09	What is the workload
00:21:09	like for county prosecutors?
00:21:12	Because there seem to be
00:21:12	some efforts
00:21:14	to try to turn a lot of things
00:21:14	over to local
00:21:16	county prosecutors
00:21:16	to take care of them.
00:21:18	What's the workload
00:21:18	like for county prosecutor?
00:21:20	They have heavy workload
00:21:20	right now.
00:21:22	And one of the bigger issues
00:21:22	that prosecutors are facing
00:21:24	today
00:21:24	is recruitment and retention.
00:21:26	And so a lot of offices
00:21:26	are understaffed.
00:21:28	You know, they're working
00:21:28	long hours.
00:21:31	Most prosecutors
00:21:31	and assistant
00:21:33	prosecutors are working well
00:21:33	beyond a 40 hour workweek.
00:21:36	And so we are sensitive to,
00:21:36	kind of new responsibilities
00:21:41	and new workload
00:21:41	being given to us.
00:21:43	Do you have kids
00:21:45	who are coming
00:21:45	out of law school
00:21:46	who are looking at positions
00:21:46	in big firms rather than,
00:21:50	I mean, that's going to pay
00:21:50	more than what you pay?
00:21:52	Yeah, that
00:21:52	that is certainly part of it.
00:21:54	You know, they are
00:21:54	they're long hours.
00:21:56	They're emotionally charged
00:21:56	issues.
00:21:58	They're difficult issues
00:21:58	with weighty decisions.
00:22:01	And, and like you said,
00:22:01	most often for not as much pay
00:22:05	as you could go
00:22:05	make in the private sector.
00:22:07	And so that is
00:22:07	certainly part of it.
00:22:09	And that's something you share
00:22:09	with,
00:22:10	for instance, judges
00:22:10	in the system. Yeah.
00:22:12	At the same challenge there,
00:22:12	I think. Absolutely.
00:22:14	On that note,
00:22:15	I want to ask you
00:22:15	about a group
00:22:17	that wants to end
00:22:17	qualified immunity in Ohio.
00:22:20	For government employees
00:22:20	that would include police
00:22:22	officers, prosecutors
00:22:22	potentially,
00:22:24	they're gathering signatures
00:22:25	to put an issue on next year's
00:22:25	ballot.
00:22:27	That idea may have
00:22:27	some support among people
00:22:29	who say that they want
00:22:29	police officers and others
00:22:32	to be held
00:22:33	more accountable
00:22:33	to some of the things that,
00:22:34	the high profile things
00:22:34	that have been happening.
00:22:36	Are you concerned about that
00:22:36	issue getting on the ballot?
00:22:39	We are very concerned
00:22:39	about it.
00:22:40	It would be
00:22:40	absolutely devastating
00:22:43	to law enforcement
00:22:43	and absolutely devastating
00:22:45	to prosecutors
00:22:46	and consequently devastating
00:22:46	for public safety
00:22:49	in the state of Ohio.
00:22:51	And it does tie in
00:22:52	to the recruitment and retention
00:22:55	like I said, these are
00:22:57	these are very difficult jobs
00:22:57	being a police officer
00:22:59	or being a prosecutor, long
00:22:59	hours, emotionally charged
00:23:03	and emotionally,
00:23:03	emotionally intense cases.
00:23:08	And it's going to be even more
00:23:08	difficult, if not impossible
00:23:12	for us to recruit
00:23:12	people to these jobs
00:23:14	if they're constantly worried
00:23:15	about a lawsuit
00:23:15	hanging over their head.
00:23:18	And I think beyond recruitment
00:23:18	and retention, it's
00:23:21	going to reduce
00:23:21	the effectiveness
00:23:23	of the law enforcement
00:23:23	and prosecutors
00:23:24	that we currently have
00:23:24	and that we can convince
00:23:26	to become prosecutors
00:23:26	and law enforcement.
00:23:29	You're going to have
00:23:29	law enforcement that hesitates
00:23:32	to, to engage
00:23:32	in certain situations
00:23:34	or decides
00:23:34	not to engage at all.
00:23:36	You're going to have
00:23:36	prosecutors who are reluctant
00:23:38	to take on complex cases
00:23:38	or controversial cases
00:23:42	because
00:23:42	of fear, fear of a lawsuit.
00:23:45	You're going to have
00:23:45	bad actors who use lawsuits
00:23:48	to intimidate prosecutors
00:23:50	or law enforcement
00:23:50	or tie them up in litigation,
00:23:52	and you're going to have
00:23:52	people who are, who suffer
00:23:56	reputational damage
00:23:56	because of lawsuits,
00:23:58	who have done nothing wrong,
00:24:00	you know, the whole
00:24:00	the whole purpose
00:24:01	behind and policy behind
00:24:01	qualified immunity
00:24:04	is that we want to encourage
00:24:04	public servants,
00:24:07	to be able to do their jobs.
00:24:09	They have difficult jobs.
00:24:10	They have to make
00:24:11	difficult choices,
00:24:11	on behalf of the public good.
00:24:15	And we want them to be able
00:24:16	to do that without fear
00:24:16	of constantly being sued.
00:24:19	And we have to recognize that
00:24:19	this is a human system.
00:24:23	Humans make mistakes
00:24:23	once in a while.
00:24:25	We can't have
00:24:25	the public being sued
00:24:27	all the time for for mistakes
00:24:27	that are made.
00:24:30	And that is it for this week,
00:24:30	for my colleagues
00:24:31	at the statehouse News
00:24:31	Bureau of Ohio Public Media.
00:24:33	Thanks for watching.
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Note : Transcripts are compiled from uncorrected captions