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00:00:09From the Center for the Study and Teaching of Writing
00:00:10at The Ohio State University, this is Writers Talk.
00:00:13I'm Doug Dangler.
00:00:15Lyricist and writer Bill Russell received two Tony nominations for
00:00:19"Sideshow," co-wrote "Pageant" and wrote "Elegies for Angles, Punks and
00:00:24Raging Queens," and "Lucky Duck." He's working on a new show, "The Last
00:00:28Smoker in America," which is on its way to New York.
00:00:31Welcome to Writers Talk, Bill Russell.
00:00:32Thanks very much.
00:00:33Good to be there.
00:00:35Well, "The Last Smoker in America", it's a ninety-minute, one act
00:00:38musical comedy with a live rock band.
00:00:41Walk me through the development of the piece.
00:00:42Tell me what it's about.
00:00:43How did you come up to write it?
00:00:45Well, it's set in the very near future of tomorrow when anti-smoking
00:00:49laws are becoming more and more draconian.
00:00:52During the course of the show it goes from social ostracism, to heavy
00:00:58fines, to a year in prison, then twenty years in prison for smoking and
00:01:02the lead character, Pam, who is an English Comp.
00:01:04Professor, just cannot quit.
00:01:08That's the basic idea of the plot.
00:01:10The development of it has been quite long and round about.
00:01:16It started as a one act and gradually developed
00:01:21into a full-length show.
00:01:24And I like the fact that you're doing an English Comp professor as
00:01:27somebody with this addiction that would be punishable
00:01:30by twenty years in prison.
00:01:32You're that English people.
00:01:34So tell me, I mean, were you looking for some sort of comment then on
00:01:40just the treatment of smokers in the US or is it about public policy?
00:01:45What got you into this?
00:01:47It's really about personal freedom and where your
00:01:50freedom impinges on mine.
00:01:54And interestingly enough, we're had a development process of this and
00:01:57we've done readings and we did a showcase production last year at the
00:02:01New York Musical Theater Festival and smokers think it's about them and
00:02:07anti-smokers think it's about them so I actually like that a lot.
00:02:12Why do you think that is?
00:02:15I mean, why do you think they're taking to heart in so many, in such
00:02:18radically different ways?
00:02:19Well it's, I think there is a certain amount of ambiguity about it.
00:02:23It doesn't come down clearly on one side or the other of the issue.
00:02:27It's just exploring the questions that arise from these kinds
00:02:31of issues of personal freedom.
00:02:34Now you've talked about doing readings and talking to,
00:02:39having a lot of revisions.
00:02:41Tell me about some of the revisions.
00:02:43What happens when you're starting on this show
00:02:46and how does it get revised?
00:02:48What leads to you revise?
00:02:49Well, we've been working on this for over six years and I've done
00:02:52over fifty drafts of it.
00:02:55So tell me what each draft changed.
00:02:57Go ahead.
00:03:00It is an original musical and it's a comedy, both of which are
00:03:04challenging in their own ways.
00:03:06And, you know, in the process of hearing it in front of audiences, you
00:03:10hear, especially with the comedy, what's landing and what isn't.
00:03:14But also in terms of the overall form, what songs are really working
00:03:18and what is needed, for different songs.
00:03:21So there's been a lot of revising of that, cutting songs, replacing
00:03:26them with other songs, adding new songs and it takes
00:03:29a long time to work that out.
00:03:31And that's a different sort of process than it used to be, right?
00:03:34I mean you can go out of town and then come back to New York or to
00:03:36Broadway with a different show, but has that always historically been
00:03:40that Broadway treated musicals?
00:03:44I think there was always a lot of revision.
00:03:46It tended to happen more quickly in the past because typically musicals
00:03:53tried out of town and a lot of work was done there.
00:03:57Now there's such a long development process with workshops and readings
00:04:01and showcases that more of the work happens before you even get to the
00:04:06stage of going out of town.
00:04:08Why is there so much more now?
00:04:10Why is it such a longer process?
00:04:12Well, I think it's a very expensive hobby to pursue.
00:04:18Is that what you tell people?
00:04:21I don't work, I have a hobby.
00:04:24I have an avocation and a vocation.
00:04:28But ever since "Chorus Line," which started the whole process of
00:04:31workshopping musicals because they are so expensive and very few
00:04:34musicals go out of town anymore because it's just
00:04:37too much money to do that.
00:04:40So, the process has changed over the years.
00:04:44And, you know, when it comes down to talking about musicals, you're
00:04:48the lyricist and well, people like Sondheim do both.
00:04:52Which is crazy.
00:04:53But how do you work with the lyricist, you've worked with a couple.
00:04:57You've worked with.
00:04:59I'm sorry, how do you work with the composer?
00:05:01You've worked with a couple different composers.
00:05:02You're working with Peter Melnick on this one.
00:05:05You've worked with two other musical one acts with him: "Patter for
00:05:08Floating Lady" and "A Bad Spell." So you've got this process.
00:05:12Tell me about this process.
00:05:14Well interestingly enough, all the composers I work with prefer to
00:05:18start with lyric and that's somewhat unusual,
00:05:23but it's different with each one.
00:05:27For instance, I've written four musicals with Henry Kreegar, the
00:05:29composer of "Dream Girls." And with him I'll work on a lyric
00:05:36by myself in the morning.
00:05:39Not necessarily write a whole lyric, but come with something,
00:05:43a verse and a refrain.
00:05:45Say I go down to his apartment in the afternoon.
00:05:49He won't look at it.
00:05:52We've discussed who the character is singing in the moment and a
00:05:56possible feel sometimes, but he takes it, he sits down at the piano, he
00:06:00puts the lyric on the piano, puts his keys on the keyboard and then
00:06:04looks up and starts playing as he reads it for the first time.
00:06:07And I would say, sixty percent of the time, what happens in that moment
00:06:12defines what that song is.
00:06:14Now then we work on it, we play it thousands of times and if I haven't
00:06:19written a whole lyric, for instance, he might write a musical section
00:06:24that follows what I've written so I set lyrics to that so it does go
00:06:28back and forth a lot.
00:06:30In this particular show, for instance, there's a song that had a
00:06:34completely different title and a completely different lyric and I loved
00:06:39the music, but for plot reasons we had to change the lyrics so I
00:06:43completely re-wrote it.
00:06:45So you'll change everything.
00:06:47You'll revise something as big as the plot, you know, it had a happy
00:06:49ending before, now it's a sad ending.
00:06:52Where are your boundaries on that?
00:06:53Is there anything you haven't done?
00:06:56Or do you ever flip backwards and say,
00:06:58you know I liked this better the other way?
00:07:00Oh yes.
00:07:01That happens sometimes.
00:07:02How do you know when you've hit on the thing that you want?
00:07:04It's just instinctual.
00:07:06And of course with a show you get a lot of feedback from, you know,
00:07:11director, audiences, whoever.
00:07:15Everybody has feelings about it and that's great,
00:07:18I appreciate that input.
00:07:20You get a sense of.
00:07:22People don't often have the solution but they're great
00:07:25at identifying the problems.
00:07:29So one of the areas where there is a lot of writing in theater is
00:07:34What's your take on criticism?
00:07:35Some people read it, some people refuse to read it.
00:07:38Does it ever occur to you, ok this guy has a point or this woman has a
00:07:42point, lets incorporate that into the show?
00:07:45I wish I could refuse to read it, but I can't.
00:07:51But absolutely, sometimes I read reviews that make points that make a
00:07:56lot of sense to me.
00:07:57I just had a show in London that "Elegies for Angels, Punks and Raging
00:08:03Queens," it's an AIDS piece which I essentially wrote twenty years ago,
00:08:06but it does get revived a lot.
00:08:08And I added some new material for this London production and one of the
00:08:12critics really made some excellent points
00:08:14about it that I took to heart.
00:08:16Now that one is based off of your reading.
00:08:18Or so it's a revision or it has in mind Spoonriver Anthology.
00:08:21Correct, it was inspired by that.
00:08:23Which is all about a small town and all the people in it who are, sort
00:08:27of, I think, speaking from the grave informing on each other.
00:08:30So tell me how that worked its way into that musical.
00:08:35It's a one act, right, and it's these testimonials, confessionals of
00:08:40people who have died from AIDS.
00:08:42Well I was very familiar with Spoonriver and
00:08:45I've written free verse all my life.
00:08:47I was looking to do a longer piece in that form and in 1987 I was at
00:08:52the initial unveiling of the names Project Quilt in Washington.
00:08:57And I had the idea to transfer Edgar Lee Master's cemetery in
00:09:03Spoonriver to the AIDS quilt as the metaphor shaping this piece.
00:09:11And to write free verse monologues in the voices of people who have
00:09:16died from AIDS in the way that he wrote in the voices of the people
00:09:20from that town who were in the cemetery.
00:09:23Now some of these are based on people you knew, you said some of
00:09:25them are based on stories, things like that.
00:09:28When you get feedback on something like this, you can get feedback from
00:09:31people that say, you know what, I knew this person and that wasn't the
00:09:35way I wanted to remember them or that wasn't the way.
00:09:37Does that happen?
00:09:38Then what do you do?
00:09:41I can't say so much that, but the most common response I hear from
00:09:45that is you should have one about because it's impossible to cover the
00:09:49subject of AIDS in just thirty monologues
00:09:53and all the experiences that people had.
00:09:56I can't say that I, yeah.
00:09:58I don't know that most people would recognize
00:10:01the people that are real stories.
00:10:05As you said, you're traveling with the show and that's
00:10:10one of the reasons to cheer.
00:10:11What kind of influence do you get to make as the writer?
00:10:15You've got the director, the director is telling people do this, do
00:10:18this, do that, and you're sitting there going you know, that's not what
00:10:20I had in mind for this or I want to see
00:10:23the stage direction done in another way.
00:10:25What happens when they contravene a stage direction?
00:10:27You know, I have a wonderful relationship
00:10:29with our director, Andy Sandberg.
00:10:31Oh, that's too bad.
00:10:31So I mean, we have a very.
00:10:35He is so smart and he is given such incredible notes on the writing and
00:10:41he is very open to my notes on the direction,
00:10:44but I don't have that many.
00:10:45I really like what he is doing and I love being surprised by directors.
00:10:50I just came from the theaters and there's all this set stuff that I
00:10:54never saw in my head that is so cool
00:10:57and it's so exciting to see it now.
00:10:59But at the same time, you've also directed a number
00:11:02-Of your own.
00:11:04Has this lead you to revise anything?
00:11:07I'm curious about you've got a show, it's run, you've seen somebody
00:11:10else direct it and then you come back later on and you're going to
00:11:12direct a different version of your show.
00:11:16So at some level you're interested in what these people have done,
00:11:18but you also want to go in your own direction.
00:11:21Tell me about that experience for you,
00:11:22as the writer getting to do everything.
00:11:26Well I tend not to direct my own stuff on its initial outing because if
00:11:31a rewrite is needed, I don't want to be thinking about what the lights
00:11:35are doing, but I often direct my own pieces
00:11:38after they have been established.
00:11:40And of course I am very influenced by the ways they were originally
00:11:43directed, but I think a good show is open to a lot of interpretations
00:11:48and of course the circumstances are always different and the casts are
00:11:53Elegies is a piece that I've directed many times with many different
00:11:57actors all over the world and I still, even though I wrote it, I still
00:12:02have a director with them to find new things
00:12:05in the monologues because they bring new things to it.
00:12:09So that's a very exciting process to me.
00:12:12Now that sounds like it must be a very positive thing, when they
00:12:14bring these new things.
00:12:16Oh yeah.
00:12:17But I'm also curious about the other side, when they do something
00:12:19and you're like, you know, this points up to me that here's a part that
00:12:23I might need to rewrite --oh yes.
00:12:25I didn't see that before and what's that process like for you?
00:12:28Well, you know, Tennessee Williams famously said, "plays aren't so
00:12:30much finished as abandoned" and I very much feel that.
00:12:34And I keep coming back to my shows for different reasons.
00:12:38I like to think they are done, but they never really are.
00:12:42Our show "Lucky Duck" that I wrote with Henry Kreiger, just this summer
00:12:47we were asked to adapt it as a piece for young audiences and it really
00:12:51wasn't written with that in mind.
00:12:55But we were happy to do it and in doing so, we made a lot of
00:12:58discoveries about it.
00:13:00How did you revise it for young audiences?
00:13:03What did you do?
00:13:04What did you have to change?
00:13:06It had to be seventy minutes without any intermission.
00:13:09And they said, you know, the kids won't really sit still for many
00:13:12ballads so we had to cut most of those.
00:13:15And there was a certain adult edge to it.
00:13:17It is a fairy tale, it's a whacky version of the Ugly Duckling idea,
00:13:22but we had to cut back on some of our warped sensibilities.
00:13:26So you've got a college scout named Wolf, who takes on the Ugly
00:13:30Duckling as a fashion model who claims he no longer eats meat.
00:13:35So, there may be some problems with this.
00:13:37You've also done a show called "Sideshow." Yes.
00:13:41And it was about a conjoined set of twins.
00:13:45Tell me about writing that.
00:13:47What got you interested in that topic?
00:13:49Well it's based on a true story of the Hilton sisters who were stars
00:13:53of Vaudeville in the thirties, during the height of the Depression they
00:13:56were making four thousand dollars a week, which would be forty thousand
00:13:59dollars a week now at least.
00:14:02They made two movies: Todd Browning's "Freaks" they appeared in when
00:14:07they were quite young and gorgeous.
00:14:09And then they made this terrible movie in the fifties called "Chained
00:14:12for Life," which is how we discovered them.
00:14:16The director of "Sideshow" saw that movie and said we should write a
00:14:21musical about this.
00:14:23It's these conjoined twins, they sing, they dance, they play musical
00:14:25instruments, and I immediately said that was a great idea.
00:14:30Because I was just fascinated by the thought of two actors singing and
00:14:35dancing together on stage, I thought that was inherently theatrical.
00:14:41And they were nominated for the Tony's.
00:14:43And if they were nominated as one role, so they would have won one
00:14:46conjoined Tony.
00:14:50They won two Tonys with their name on it.
00:14:55What is it like for the actors in that particular thing?
00:14:57You've got a vision they're going to be conjoined.
00:14:59Tell me how that physically worked out on stage.
00:15:02Well, it was interesting because we had always thought when we were
00:15:05writing it they would be physically connected by costumes.
00:15:11And one of the first people we showed any of it to was Robin Wagner,
00:15:15who is a very established Broadway scene designer from "Hair," "Chorus
00:15:23Line," "Dream Girls," up to "Hairspray."
00:15:25No, he didn't do "Hairspray," sorry.
00:15:26But he said, you know, I think having them connected by costumes would
00:15:31be kind of grotesque and it's the theater,
00:15:35the audience should create that connection.
00:15:38So we've always done it with them just standing side by side, but it is
00:15:42so convincing and they dance, they do everything.
00:15:46In the Broadway production I'd be in the lobby at intermission and I'd
00:15:49hear people say, "Oh that one time they turned I saw the Velcro." Well
00:15:52there was no Velcro, they were just so good at it.
00:15:57The women who played those roles, Henry always said because of his
00:16:01experiences with "Dream Girls" they will hate each other, but it's been
00:16:05absolutely the opposite.
00:16:08They always love each other and after rehearsal they miss having the
00:16:13other actor at their hip.
00:16:15Well they've also, well the original two were nominated for Tonys,
00:16:18went on to record a couple different albums and duets together.
00:16:21Right So that at least worked well.
00:16:23Oh, yes, yes.
00:16:25And they both have done very well.
00:16:26Alice Ripley won the Tony last year for "Next to Normal" and Emily
00:16:30Skinner is coming back to Broadway right now in "Billy Elliot," so
00:16:33they've had a great career.
00:16:35What's the landscape look like for emerging lyricists and authors?
00:16:39You've been at this game for awhile.
00:16:41Is it changing?
00:16:42Is it better?
00:16:42Is it worse?
00:16:44Well, you know, there are a lot of support opportunities out there.
00:16:49There's a lot of grants, there's a lot of workshops, the BMI workshop
00:16:53which has produced all sorts of writers.
00:16:56There's a lot of theaters interested
00:16:58in developing young writers' new work.
00:17:02What there isn't, however, is many opportunities for commercial
00:17:06production because it's gotten so outlandishly expensive and it's just
00:17:12not how it was in the golden age of musical theater in the fifties.
00:17:15You know, two hundred and fifty shows would open
00:17:19every season on Broadway.
00:17:21Now, if it's forty it's a miracle and twenty of those are musicals,
00:17:26you know.
00:17:27So there is not a lot of production opportunities, I think.
00:17:31Why is it that music.
00:17:32If you got, and this is someone who ran away from his one opportunity
00:17:36to buy a Broadway ticket when he saw the price.
00:17:39So tell me about the production and what drives the cost up on these.
00:17:44What are the economics that are affecting you as a writer being about
00:17:47to get your stuff out there?
00:17:49There's so many, but one of the big costs is real estate in New
00:17:54York, the theater rentals, the theater owners, that's a big cost.
00:17:59Advertising in New York is just outrageous.
00:18:03But, musicals, "The Last Smoker in America" is a four-character
00:18:07musical, but it's.
00:18:09You've got a four-piece band.
00:18:12Musicals involve a lot of different elements -- orchestrations, vocal
00:18:17arrangements, choreography.
00:18:19All of these things that you don't have in a straight play.
00:18:22And in the case of "The Last Smoker," none of these roles can be
00:18:30covered by more than one understudy,
00:18:33there has to be one understudy for each role.
00:18:36That gets expensive because you have to pay them the same salary as the
00:18:40actors, basically.
00:18:42So if it's so expensive to do this --Yes Why not just do a
00:18:44regular play?
00:18:46I love musicals and I love writing lyrics, that's the icing for me.
00:18:51The book, or the script, is the hard part, that's the challenging part
00:18:56and so I do it because I love music.
00:19:00Well I think you've got some of "The last Smoker in America" that
00:19:03you're going to read and act for us and perform.
00:19:06And I think you also have a background as a performer, right?
00:19:09Yes, I was in college and high school and then I had a brief period
00:19:14of stage fright, that lasted about twenty-five years.
00:19:18Well hopefully you're over that by now.
00:19:19I am over that now!
00:19:21So go ahead.
00:19:23Set this up for us so we know what's going on.
00:19:25This is the lyric for the title song, "The Last Smoker in America"
00:19:29and it's the main character Pam, the English Comp.
00:19:32Professor who has been gone now for a year
00:19:36and she delivers this to her teenage son.
00:19:40Go on.
00:19:41Because is that a plot point we can't talk about?
00:19:43We can talk about it.
00:19:44She had to go on the run because she smoked a cigarette, so this is to
00:19:49her teenage son.
00:19:51"First I wan to say I've always loved you.
00:19:55When I left I thought my heart would break.
00:19:58Sometimes we feel passion well beyond our control.
00:20:02My addiction is impossible to shake.
00:20:06I'm the last smoker in America cause all the rest
00:20:08got cancer or did time.
00:20:11The last smoker in America, why did what I love become a crime?
00:20:16I've been on the run one year in counting.
00:20:19Hooked up with some renegades I met.
00:20:21We were chased by bloodhounds, and by smokebots.
00:20:25They got my pals and stubbed out my last cigarette.
00:20:30Last smoker in America, it's not like I do heroine or crank.
00:20:34The last smoker in America, wish I only overate or drank and you have
00:20:39seen how I've tried to quit- cold turkey and patches and SA.
00:20:45The nicotine wouldn't manumit,
00:20:47couldn't break the filthy habit so I made my get away.
00:20:52Now I reached the end of butts and filters,
00:20:56only want to eat until I gag.
00:20:59Maybe I should try to flee the country.
00:21:02Perhaps in England I can some how snag a fag.
00:21:06I'm the last smoker in America.
00:21:08Has anybody known a sadder lot?
00:21:12The last smoker in America.
00:21:14Maybe I should take up smoking pot.
00:21:17Yes, I am the last smoker in America
00:21:20and now my life is not worth diddly-squat.
00:21:24Not diddly-squat".
00:21:28That was very nice.
00:21:29I can't remember a time when I've heard a lyric with diddly-squat
00:21:33rhyming with something.
00:21:35What are the?
00:21:36With that in mind, tell me about when you decide to rhyme something.
00:21:41When you decide to.
00:21:43What are your limits?
00:21:45You're willing to pull in diddly-squat, I mean that sort of is an Ogden
00:21:48Nash kind of thing where you're going to say, I'll rhyme anything.
00:21:54Do you have limits on, you think, ok I'm not going to use that, it's
00:21:57too much a half rhyme, it's not funny enough, it's not.
00:22:02Where do you go on?
00:22:03Well I try never to do half rhyme or- Slant rhymes.
00:22:08--Untrue rhymes.
00:22:10I never do that if possible.
00:22:12Otherwise, well especially a comedy, kind of everything's up for grabs
00:22:16and I'm shameless, I'll just go everywhere.
00:22:21Yeah, I try to stay away from tired and worn cliches that you get in
00:22:28lyrics a lot.
00:22:31You've got, you mention, smokebots, which I'm assuming are robots
00:22:35that chase down smokers.
00:22:37So there's sort of a science fiction element to it as well.
00:22:41Tell me about deciding when you're writing something like this what
00:22:45you're going to anchor in reality?
00:22:48What you're going to bring in?
00:22:49How much is that fair for you?
00:22:51What kind of deviations from reality are you willing to do and still
00:22:55make it a play about, as you said, tomorrow?
00:22:58Right, right, well, this is a dystopian piece in a way and it's
00:23:03also a farce, so it has a heightened reality to begin with.
00:23:09But that being said, I always try to anchor it in some kind of reality.
00:23:13I mean, you know, this is a crazy view of the near future, but it does
00:23:20have certain consistency, hopefully.
00:23:24Consistency of the narrowing of personal freedom, in some right.
00:23:31Who are the people that you're following right now of lyricists?
00:23:34Who do you think has really got it going on?
00:23:37Sondheim's eighty?
00:23:39He just turned eighty.
00:23:41He defiantly got it.
00:23:44He has, his production has significantly slowed.
00:23:49So who is going to be taking up after that?
00:23:52Who are the new people coming out?
00:23:54You know, the writer that excites me the most and he's a composer
00:23:58lyricist, is a young man named Joe Iconis.
00:24:02He's a recent graduate of NYU.
00:24:07I think he is absolutely stunning.
00:24:09I just love his sensibility.
00:24:12I've always been interested in where musical theater meets pop music,
00:24:16that's one of the reasons I was so inspired to work with Henry Krieger
00:24:19because I thought "Dream Girls" was so electrifying in that way.
00:24:23And Joe really comes from a rock and roll tradition, which I love, and
00:24:31combines that with musical theater, so he's someone I really, really
00:24:37There's a lot of great young writers out there though.
00:24:41What was the last musical you saw?
00:24:43The last musical, oh gosh.
00:24:47I go to the theater a lot, more than most people I work with, but the
00:24:51very last one I saw.
00:24:54Because the new season is just starting.
00:24:59A question you can't answer.
00:25:03What are you looking for next?
00:25:06What's your next thing?
00:25:08Have you started on that?
00:25:09Are you waiting for this to be done before you start the doodling about
00:25:12here's my next project?
00:25:13Oh no, I have a couple other projects that have been in process
00:25:17because these things take a long time and there are always waiting
00:25:21periods within them.
00:25:23You finish a draft and then you have to wait for the reading to be
00:25:25scheduled or the production to be scheduled so I have two other shows.
00:25:31Can you describe them in general terms for us?
00:25:33What's your topic?
00:25:34Well one is a musical for women and it's about three generations of
00:25:39musicians dealing with gay marriage.
00:25:44And the other is called "Mr.
00:25:46Fabulous" and it was inspired by Liberace and it's a two character
00:25:51musical about him and a young man he meets and their relationship
00:25:56during the seventies.
00:25:58So you have this interest in taking fact, taking things like, you
00:26:03know, basing it off the life of Liberace, basing it off the life of
00:26:05people in "Sideshow." Yes, sometimes I do.
00:26:10I mean it seems to be a trend.
00:26:12You're picking up the Edgar Lee Master's stuff that was historically
00:26:18What is there that attracts you to that opposed to the more, sort of
00:26:20future oriented "Last Smoker in America"?
00:26:23Well I have written several musical that aren't based on anything,
00:26:27like the last smoker.
00:26:30I mean that's a totally original story and idea.
00:26:35But, I don't know, I get inspiration in different places.
00:26:40One thing I have resisted is adapting to anything that had rights
00:26:45attached that I had to secure like movies or contemporary novels or
00:26:50something like that.
00:26:51I haven't gone there.
00:26:54I think Todd Brown is probably out of copy right now, so you can use
00:26:59it but not the one did there near the end of their life in the fifties.
00:27:03But that's not the show,
00:27:05it isn't a literal adaptation of either of those.
00:27:08Well the show right now is "The Last Smoker in America," it's the one
00:27:11you're working on.
00:27:13And people can see that.
00:27:14And Bill Russell, thank you very much for being here on Writers Talk.
00:27:19And from The Center for the Study and Teaching of Writing, this is Doug
00:27:21Dangler saying, keep writing.
Note : Transcripts are compiled from uncorrected captions