| 00:00:09 | >>From the Center for the Study and the Teaching |
| 00:00:10 | of Writing from The Ohio State University, |
| 00:00:12 | this is Writers Talk. I'm Doug Dangler. |
| 00:00:15 | Donald Ray Pollock grew up in Ohio and worked for |
| 00:00:17 | 32 years in a Chillicothe paper mill accumulating |
| 00:00:20 | experiences and stories for his writing. |
| 00:00:22 | His first collection of stories, Knockemstiff, |
| 00:00:25 | drew rave reviews and an avid following. |
| 00:00:27 | His recently released debut novel, The Devil All |
| 00:00:30 | the Time, returns to the same area for an |
| 00:00:32 | extended tour of the Knockemstiff style. |
| 00:00:35 | He's a graduate of The Ohio State University |
| 00:00:38 | Masters of Fine Arts program, so welcome to |
| 00:00:40 | Writers Talk, Donald Ray Pollock. |
| 00:00:41 | >>Hey. Thanks Doug for having me on. |
| 00:00:44 | >>Well sure. |
| 00:00:46 | Well, let's start off with this Masters in Fine |
| 00:00:47 | Arts from this suspicious school, |
| 00:00:49 | The Ohio State University. |
| 00:00:50 | >>Ok. |
| 00:00:52 | >>What did the program teach you? |
| 00:00:53 | What did you learn when you're getting your MFA? |
| 00:00:55 | You've got 32 years of experience at a paper mill |
| 00:00:57 | and some writing and then you went there. |
| 00:00:58 | So how does the education fit |
| 00:01:00 | into the picture for you? |
| 00:01:02 | >>Well, ok, so I was 50 when |
| 00:01:05 | I went to grad school. |
| 00:01:07 | I started writing when I was 45. |
| 00:01:10 | I didn't know any writers or had never been |
| 00:01:12 | around any work shops or anything like that, so |
| 00:01:17 | those five years in the beginning I was just sort |
| 00:01:21 | of guessing at what to do a lot of times. |
| 00:01:27 | |
| 00:01:28 | I think one of the reasons I went to grad school |
| 00:01:34 | so that I would be around other people who were |
| 00:01:37 | interested in writing and they gave me all that. |
| 00:01:42 | They sort of taught me, well this is the writer's |
| 00:01:44 | life, this is what you do as far as reading and |
| 00:01:47 | working everyday and |
| 00:01:52 | keeping your butt in a chair. |
| 00:01:56 | Just basic mechanic stuff even, you know. |
| 00:01:59 | >>What do you mean by basic mechanic stuff? |
| 00:02:02 | >>Plot. How do create a scene. |
| 00:02:07 | I was fairly good with some of that stuff, but |
| 00:02:11 | most of my stories were very short. |
| 00:02:15 | I'm talking anywhere from eight to twelve or |
| 00:02:18 | thirteen pages, and I guess one of the main |
| 00:02:22 | things that I learned was that |
| 00:02:24 | I always worked from the last sentence. |
| 00:02:30 | I would start with one sentence and move to the |
| 00:02:32 | next, then I would move to the next. |
| 00:02:35 | Writing a story like that takes a long time, and |
| 00:02:38 | so one of the first things I learned was hey, |
| 00:02:42 | just write a rough draft and then you'll have |
| 00:02:45 | something to work with and you go back. |
| 00:02:48 | It quickened the writing process up. |
| 00:02:49 | >>So what does your rough draft look |
| 00:02:51 | like if it wasn't on a linear kind of writing? |
| 00:02:53 | What is that rough draft? |
| 00:02:55 | Do you just want the main scene? |
| 00:02:57 | The heart of the scene? |
| 00:02:59 | Where does that go for you? |
| 00:03:01 | >>Sometimes it might just be an |
| 00:03:03 | eight or ten pages on a character. |
| 00:03:07 | It just gives me something to start with instead |
| 00:03:11 | of that one sentence at a time sort of thing, |
| 00:03:16 | which maybe had something to do with |
| 00:03:20 | trying to be perfect or something like that. |
| 00:03:23 | Art's not like that. |
| 00:03:25 | It's not going to be perfect. |
| 00:03:28 | And there were a lot of things, but you know that |
| 00:03:31 | was one of the big things that it taught me, that |
| 00:03:34 | this is the life you live if you want to be a |
| 00:03:38 | writer and that sort of thing. |
| 00:03:43 | >>What were those first five years like |
| 00:03:45 | when you were writing the short pieces? |
| 00:03:48 | It's always been fiction for you I take it. |
| 00:03:49 | >>Yes. |
| 00:03:51 | >>You're a writer. |
| 00:03:53 | You haven't dabbled in other areas, |
| 00:03:54 | and it's the fiction that works for you. |
| 00:03:57 | >>Well, at least for the first |
| 00:03:58 | five years it was all fiction. |
| 00:04:00 | I've done a few little nonfiction things |
| 00:04:04 | since then, but I really prefer the fiction. |
| 00:04:06 | >>Why is that? |
| 00:04:07 | What is there about making up the story that |
| 00:04:09 | appeals to you about making up the characters? |
| 00:04:16 | >>Truthfully, I just think that I'm |
| 00:04:17 | better at fiction than I am in nonfiction. |
| 00:04:20 | Sort of like I am with the nonfiction, |
| 00:04:23 | the things already there to a certain degree. |
| 00:04:28 | I just find it a little bit harder. |
| 00:04:31 | Some of the nonfiction I've done is. |
| 00:04:34 | I did some political pieces for the |
| 00:04:37 | New York Times, and so I would have to |
| 00:04:40 | go out and interview somebody or get a |
| 00:04:44 | story instead of sitting in the attic and |
| 00:04:47 | getting the story from up here. |
| 00:04:49 | It's a little harder for me. |
| 00:04:54 | >>So you're in the attic and you're getting the |
| 00:04:56 | stories up here, but are those things that you |
| 00:04:59 | later consciously recognize as ok I'm drawing on |
| 00:05:01 | this experience to get this, or does it really |
| 00:05:03 | surprise you at the end when you read and I |
| 00:05:05 | didn't know that was in there, |
| 00:05:06 | I don't know where that came from? |
| 00:05:08 | I don't want to do the idea of where do your |
| 00:05:10 | ideas come from, but what are they |
| 00:05:13 | like for you after they come out? |
| 00:05:15 | >>Well, a lot of times I will recognize things |
| 00:05:18 | that maybe I heard in the past, or maybe |
| 00:05:21 | I saw or something like that, |
| 00:05:25 | but they'll be little things. |
| 00:05:28 | It's never been anything major - a car somebody |
| 00:05:34 | |
| 00:05:34 | drove or maybe a little clip of dialogue I heard |
| 00:05:38 | at the paper mill fifteen years ago. |
| 00:05:42 | >>Memorable dialogue though. |
| 00:05:44 | You've kept it for 15 years and |
| 00:05:46 | used it in other stories. |
| 00:05:47 | >>Yes, eventually. |
| 00:05:49 | >>Now, you said in a New York Times |
| 00:05:51 | article that for your stories in Knockemstiff, |
| 00:05:52 | "In writing about the place I amped it up quite a bit. |
| 00:05:54 | I focused on the trouble and bad stuff." |
| 00:05:57 | So I had originally planned to ask you |
| 00:06:00 | about how the Knockemstiff community has |
| 00:06:02 | reacted to your writing, but then after I |
| 00:06:04 | had read that I read this post on your |
| 00:06:08 | Facebook page: "Nice article in the Times. |
| 00:06:10 | I am very happy for you and my dad would think |
| 00:06:12 | that seeing that bar mentioned in the New York |
| 00:06:15 | Times would have been a pretty cool thing. |
| 00:06:18 | Congrats!" So has the reaction been |
| 00:06:20 | positive from the community? |
| 00:06:23 | It has got to be, I'm guessing, a mixed bag. |
| 00:06:26 | >>Probably 90 percent, 95 percent positive. |
| 00:06:30 | There were a couple people who were upset saying |
| 00:06:34 | that I portrayed the town in this |
| 00:06:38 | particular light, this really negative light. |
| 00:06:44 | |
| 00:06:45 | The funny thing about a lot of the people in the |
| 00:06:51 | community, in the area even, is that because the |
| 00:06:54 | book is called Knockemstiff and because there is |
| 00:06:59 | an actual place called Knockemstiff, they have a |
| 00:07:02 | hard time understanding that it's fiction. |
| 00:07:05 | They pick the book up and they think that I'm |
| 00:07:10 | writing these stories about this has actually |
| 00:07:16 | happened in Knockemstiff, and that's where some |
| 00:07:22 | |
| 00:07:23 | people don't really comprehend the difference |
| 00:07:27 | between fiction and nonfiction maybe? |
| 00:07:32 | I'm not saying that they're dumb or anything, |
| 00:07:36 | it's just that because the book was called |
| 00:07:39 | Knockemstiff they just have other expectations. |
| 00:07:45 | >>Another quote from you. |
| 00:07:47 | You said that, "I'd like to write a book that |
| 00:07:50 | wasn't so violent and weird, but I don't think I |
| 00:07:52 | can do that with my talent. |
| 00:07:54 | I don't think it would come off." |
| 00:07:56 | Why do you feel that way? |
| 00:07:59 | Why do you feel like it wouldn't come off? |
| 00:08:01 | What is there that attracts you to darker |
| 00:08:02 | material like Knockemstiff and |
| 00:08:06 | The Devil All the Time? |
| 00:08:08 | >>I think for me and just the way I've always |
| 00:08:11 | seen the world, and I have always viewed the |
| 00:08:15 | world as sort of a sad and violent and troubled |
| 00:08:18 | place for the most part. |
| 00:08:20 | >>And this is why you went into writing. |
| 00:08:23 | >>Yeah. |
| 00:08:27 | I find it very easy, and I'm interested in the |
| 00:08:30 | characters and that sort of thing. |
| 00:08:33 | With that quote the guy was asking me. |
| 00:08:37 | We were talking about Barbara Pam and |
| 00:08:42 | some other English writers and some |
| 00:08:45 | of their stories aren't like mine. |
| 00:08:47 | Let's put it that way. |
| 00:08:49 | >>I can't think of a lot of people |
| 00:08:51 | whose stories are like yours actually. |
| 00:08:53 | >>Well and I've tried to write what I think |
| 00:08:59 | people might call a nice story, and I've never |
| 00:09:03 | been able to pull it off, you know. |
| 00:09:04 | I mean it's like, for example, in Knockemstiff |
| 00:09:08 | the first story in the book is called "Real Life" |
| 00:09:10 | about this kid who goes to the drive-in |
| 00:09:16 | with their dad and it's a violent story. |
| 00:09:19 | Now that story started out when I was trying to |
| 00:09:21 | write this nice story about a memory |
| 00:09:24 | I had about my uncle taking me to the |
| 00:09:25 | drive-in to see Godzilla. |
| 00:09:28 | We're talking 1960 or 1961 |
| 00:09:31 | or something like that. |
| 00:09:33 | And we had a really good time and my uncle was |
| 00:09:36 | this real laid back guy and just a super nice |
| 00:09:39 | person, and I couldn't write that story and I |
| 00:09:43 | couldn't write that story until I made. |
| 00:09:46 | Ok, we've got to have this father who is a drunk |
| 00:09:49 | and we've got this trouble going on. |
| 00:09:54 | I've always heard that you have to have a little |
| 00:09:59 | bit of trouble in your writing or your story to |
| 00:10:03 | make it interesting and I do go overboard. |
| 00:10:05 | I know I go overboard. I just find it easy. |
| 00:10:10 | >>Another MFA at Ohio State described fiction |
| 00:10:14 | to me as people doing terrible things to each |
| 00:10:18 | other and that was his definition of it, so I'm |
| 00:10:20 | starting to wonder what OSU is putting out. |
| 00:10:26 | But to follow up on that, your public persona |
| 00:10:32 | |
| 00:10:34 | seems really at odds with the writing content. |
| 00:10:37 | I don't want to confuse the author in the work, |
| 00:10:39 | but arriving at such eccentric, violent, and |
| 00:10:42 | abusive stories seems like a really interesting |
| 00:10:45 | moment for you when you're passing that out. |
| 00:10:48 | Here's a side note: We talked about three years |
| 00:10:50 | ago at, I think, at the Ohio Book Festival and I had |
| 00:10:52 | not read Knockemstiff at the time because we were |
| 00:10:54 | doing a series of interviews, and so |
| 00:10:56 | I went home and I said this guy seems |
| 00:10:57 | perfectly nice and I got the book. |
| 00:10:59 | Oh my God. |
| 00:11:04 | So tell me about being an author. |
| 00:11:06 | You go to these things, the people learn about |
| 00:11:08 | you through the books and what's |
| 00:11:10 | their reaction to you? |
| 00:11:12 | What's their reaction to the public persona? |
| 00:11:15 | Other writers who are like this are much. |
| 00:11:18 | Chuck Pallanick does a lot of sort of |
| 00:11:24 | |
| 00:11:25 | interesting things when he does a reading |
| 00:11:29 | and I haven't seen you do that. |
| 00:11:31 | >>No. I'm not a showman and Chuck's |
| 00:11:34 | just really good at that. |
| 00:11:39 | I guess probably some people are surprised |
| 00:11:43 | because I don't know what they're expecting |
| 00:11:47 | really, some real tough guy I guess maybe. |
| 00:11:53 | |
| 00:11:54 | I'm not like that. I never have been. |
| 00:11:59 | My dad was a tough guy and he's 81 |
| 00:12:04 | and he's still a tough guy. |
| 00:12:09 | Both my parents are alive. |
| 00:12:12 | I took after my mother and my mother is sort of a |
| 00:12:17 | shy, calm, laid back person and I took after her, |
| 00:12:23 | |
| 00:12:23 | but at the same time I guess maybe I. |
| 00:12:36 | Well, I'm not really sure. |
| 00:12:39 | People's reactions are different. |
| 00:12:42 | I know Michelle Herman at OSU, before |
| 00:12:45 | she ever met me I think she was |
| 00:12:47 | a little concerned about it. |
| 00:12:51 | She didn't want to be left in a room with me |
| 00:12:53 | alone or something like that. |
| 00:12:57 | It was that sort of thing. |
| 00:13:01 | That's what the writing brings off. |
| 00:13:04 | >>Well, I went back to the tape and listened to |
| 00:13:06 | the tape and said is this the same guy |
| 00:13:08 | because in the interview it was a very calm |
| 00:13:11 | interview, and then I read the book and said |
| 00:13:13 | this is quite a remarkable change to |
| 00:13:15 | have the writing verses the person. |
| 00:13:17 | Well let's do this. |
| 00:13:19 | Viewers frequently compare Knockemstiff to |
| 00:13:22 | Sherwood Anderson's Winesburg, Ohio due to |
| 00:13:24 | structural and thematic similarities . |
| 00:13:26 | What's your reaction to that? |
| 00:13:28 | Is that something you were conscious about in |
| 00:13:30 | your mind when you were writing it? |
| 00:13:32 | Did you have thoughts of Winesburg, Ohio? |
| 00:13:36 | >>No. I mean probably. |
| 00:13:38 | I think there are 18 stories in the book. |
| 00:13:42 | I think I wrote eight or nine of them before I |
| 00:13:44 | figured out that I had a story |
| 00:13:48 | collection going on. |
| 00:13:54 | It was probably with the ninth or tenth story I |
| 00:13:57 | figured out that we're going to set this |
| 00:13:59 | book in Knockemstiff. |
| 00:14:04 | It was at that point I was starting to find short |
| 00:14:07 | story collections that were linked or |
| 00:14:10 | all set in one specific place. |
| 00:14:12 | I had read Winesburg long before that, |
| 00:14:16 | but I really wasn't conscious of it. |
| 00:14:19 | It wasn't like I was trying to make a |
| 00:14:24 | Winesburg for the twenty-first century |
| 00:14:26 | or something like that. |
| 00:14:28 | >>Winesburg! Violent! Violent! |
| 00:14:30 | What were the things that you found? |
| 00:14:33 | What would you identify as some |
| 00:14:34 | of the predecessors? |
| 00:14:37 | Is there something that helped |
| 00:14:40 | you in your mind structure the book or |
| 00:14:42 | lend it some of the authenticity? |
| 00:14:44 | >>Well, there's a collection of stories by |
| 00:14:46 | Russell Banks called Trailer Park all |
| 00:14:50 | set in this mobile home park. |
| 00:14:52 | There's a book and I cannot think of the title. |
| 00:14:54 | There's a book by the guy who won the Flannery |
| 00:14:58 | Connor[c5] Award and it was set in |
| 00:15:02 | a small town of upstate Pennsylvania. |
| 00:15:06 | I can't think of it right now. |
| 00:15:11 | Circus in Winter by Cathy Day is another one. |
| 00:15:18 | James Joyce's Dubliners. |
| 00:15:24 | There are quite a few of them out there |
| 00:15:28 | once you start searching for them. |
| 00:15:31 | >>I think that you're going to read a little |
| 00:15:32 | something from the prologue to |
| 00:15:34 | help set up the novel for us. |
| 00:15:36 | >>Yeah. |
| 00:15:38 | I'll just read the first couple paragraphs here |
| 00:15:40 | which sort of gives an explanation of the title. |
| 00:15:44 | "On a dismal morning on the end of a wet October, |
| 00:15:47 | Arvan Eugene Russell hurried behind his father, |
| 00:15:49 | Willard, along the edge of a pasture that |
| 00:15:51 | overlooked a long and rocky field in |
| 00:15:56 | southern Ohio called Knockemstiff. |
| 00:15:59 | Willard was tall and raw boned and Arvan |
| 00:16:01 | had a hard time keeping up with him. |
| 00:16:03 | The field was overrun with briar patches and |
| 00:16:06 | fading clumps of chick weed and thistle and |
| 00:16:08 | ground fog thick as the grey clouds above |
| 00:16:10 | reached to the nine year old boys knee's. |
| 00:16:13 | After a few minutes they veered off into the |
| 00:16:15 | woods and followed a narrow deer path down the |
| 00:16:17 | hill until they came to a log lying in a small |
| 00:16:19 | clearing, the remains of a big red oak |
| 00:16:21 | that had fallen many years ago. |
| 00:16:24 | A weathered cross fitted together out of boards |
| 00:16:27 | pried from the back of the ram shackled barn |
| 00:16:30 | behind their farm house leaned a little |
| 00:16:32 | eastward in the soft ground parts below them. |
| 00:16:35 | Willard eased himself down the high side of the |
| 00:16:37 | log and motioned for his son to |
| 00:16:39 | kneel beside him in the dead, soggy leaves. |
| 00:16:42 | Unless he had whiskey running through his veins |
| 00:16:44 | Willard came to the clearing every |
| 00:16:46 | morning and evening to talk to God. |
| 00:16:49 | Arven didn't know which was worse, |
| 00:16:50 | the drinking or the praying. |
| 00:16:53 | As far back as he couple remember it seemed that |
| 00:16:55 | his father had fought the devil all the time, |
| 00:16:58 | Arven shivered a little with a damp, |
| 00:17:01 | pulled his coat tighter. |
| 00:17:03 | He wished he was still in bed. |
| 00:17:05 | Even school, with all its miseries, |
| 00:17:07 | was better than this. |
| 00:17:09 | But it was a Saturday and there |
| 00:17:11 | was no way to get round it." |
| 00:17:14 | >>Now one of the things that I think |
| 00:17:16 | of when you're reading that is that your |
| 00:17:18 | voice lends a very different character to it. |
| 00:17:20 | Have you done the audio book for this? |
| 00:17:22 | >>No. They've done an audio book. |
| 00:17:24 | >>Who is the reader on that? |
| 00:17:25 | >>I can't even tell you. |
| 00:17:27 | >>So you haven't gotten it? |
| 00:17:28 | >>I haven't even gotten it yet. |
| 00:17:30 | >>Without getting you in trouble with the |
| 00:17:32 | person that did that, who would you |
| 00:17:36 | have wanted if you could choose anyone? |
| 00:17:38 | What would be the voice of |
| 00:17:40 | The Devil All the Time? |
| 00:17:44 | >>Well I'm not sure who it would be. |
| 00:17:46 | I guess I would probably choose somebody |
| 00:17:48 | who had a little bit of a Southern twang going on. |
| 00:17:51 | Other than that I don't know. |
| 00:17:53 | >>You're open to anybody. |
| 00:17:56 | >>Anyone that can stand to read though the |
| 00:17:59 | entire thing out loud I guess. |
| 00:18:00 | >>So stand to read it? |
| 00:18:02 | That's the bar that you're setting? |
| 00:18:05 | Anybody that can stay awake through |
| 00:18:08 | all the violence, that person can read it? |
| 00:18:10 | In a review of The Devil All the Time, the |
| 00:18:12 | Columbus Dispatch said, "He doesn't extend |
| 00:18:14 | forgiveness to the characters, but he makes even |
| 00:18:17 | the most evil of them understandable." |
| 00:18:20 | Tell me about ethics for you in writing. |
| 00:18:25 | You said that you know you go over the top. |
| 00:18:28 | Could or has one of your characters gone too far |
| 00:18:31 | and you reigned it back in, or is that not a |
| 00:18:34 | question for you, they cannot go too far? |
| 00:18:37 | >>Well yeah, I think they can go too far. |
| 00:18:43 | I've had people who've said that I didn't go far |
| 00:18:49 | |
| 00:18:50 | enough with some of the violence |
| 00:18:54 | and the visceral details. |
| 00:18:59 | >>How do you respond to that? |
| 00:19:02 | What's your thought about that? |
| 00:19:07 | >>Well its sort of like well, people are going |
| 00:19:10 | to say I went too far; people are |
| 00:19:12 | going to say I didn't go far enough. |
| 00:19:14 | You can never please everybody. |
| 00:19:17 | >>I guess I have that Michelle Herman reaction |
| 00:19:18 | where if someone comes up to me saying I don't |
| 00:19:20 | think you went far enough with the visceral |
| 00:19:23 | detail, I would say I don't want to |
| 00:19:25 | be alone in a room with you. |
| 00:19:26 | You worry me, sir. |
| 00:19:28 | You worry me a great deal. |
| 00:19:31 | But has that been a problem for you in writing? |
| 00:19:33 | You say in this section I wrote it was good to |
| 00:19:35 | have written it, but now I have to set it aside |
| 00:19:37 | because I don't think that it's going |
| 00:19:39 | to set the tenor that I want because |
| 00:19:41 | of going over the top. |
| 00:19:45 | >>The thing with the gritty violence and all |
| 00:19:49 | of the pretty awful details at times is |
| 00:19:55 | |
| 00:19:56 | that I have to make a choice. |
| 00:20:01 | Am I going to follow what I consider ok, this is |
| 00:20:06 | the way the book should be written or as I said, |
| 00:20:11 | am I going to try to please the readers? |
| 00:20:15 | A lot of the readers I know, a lot more of them |
| 00:20:20 | are going to read the book if some |
| 00:20:23 | of those details or if the book's not |
| 00:20:26 | nearly as violent and gritty as it is. |
| 00:20:30 | On the other hand, am I going to like the book? |
| 00:20:36 | |
| 00:20:36 | Am I going to think that I did the |
| 00:20:38 | best I could with it? |
| 00:20:44 | |
| 00:20:49 | >>Tell me about the research that you go into |
| 00:20:52 | on the book when you're writing fiction. |
| 00:20:55 | This is set in the location close to |
| 00:20:57 | where you grew up even though it's fiction. |
| 00:21:01 | Is there stuff that you say as an author I have |
| 00:21:03 | to chase this down, I have to go look it up, |
| 00:21:05 | even though its fiction, to make sure |
| 00:21:07 | you get details right? |
| 00:21:10 | How does that operate for you in fiction, or is |
| 00:21:13 | it wholly just I can depend on my memory of the |
| 00:21:16 | conversation I had twenty years ago. |
| 00:21:20 | >>Well, pretty much with Ross county, with the |
| 00:21:22 | area around Knockemstiff, I can pretty much rely |
| 00:21:25 | on my memory. |
| 00:21:27 | I'm fifty-six years old. I've lived there all my life. |
| 00:21:30 | Now part of the book is set in southern West |
| 00:21:33 | Virginia, and I did drive down there and walked |
| 00:21:36 | around Louisburg and talked with some people. |
| 00:21:40 | I contacted a guy who works for |
| 00:21:43 | the historical society there. |
| 00:21:47 | He was a really nice guy. |
| 00:21:52 | I needed to know where the bus station |
| 00:21:56 | was there in 1946, that sort of thing. |
| 00:21:58 | What street was it on? |
| 00:22:02 | And he gave me a lot more details than I actually |
| 00:22:05 | used in the book and I asked him more questions |
| 00:22:08 | than I needed to, but I got a pretty |
| 00:22:12 | good sense of it that way. |
| 00:22:15 | The only other research that I did was I read |
| 00:22:19 | several books on serial killers, three or four. |
| 00:22:25 | I was going along ok with it, but then I read a |
| 00:22:31 | book about John Wayne Gacy called Buried Dreams |
| 00:22:35 | by Tim Cahill and that book gave me nightmares. |
| 00:22:40 | >>There's a point you say when I was reading |
| 00:22:43 | about serial killers and I was going along ok |
| 00:22:45 | with it then you run into something |
| 00:22:48 | bad, you've gone pretty far there. |
| 00:22:51 | Did they just have the descriptions |
| 00:22:54 | of it or getting into the characters mind? |
| 00:22:56 | >>Tim Cahill is a really good writer. |
| 00:22:59 | He's a nonfiction writer and this |
| 00:23:01 | was his first book. |
| 00:23:04 | I never even heard of it until |
| 00:23:06 | I was doing this research. |
| 00:23:08 | Yeah, it just got very graphic about |
| 00:23:11 | what Gacy was doing and that sort of thing. |
| 00:23:14 | After that I decided that's enough, |
| 00:23:18 | I don't need anymore research on these guys. |
| 00:23:22 | >>I recall you saying in an interview that you |
| 00:23:25 | force yourself to stay in the chair and |
| 00:23:27 | I think you said that earlier. |
| 00:23:29 | That's one of the things you have to do |
| 00:23:31 | as a writer, and that is you had to discipline |
| 00:23:32 | yourself to just stay there and not |
| 00:23:34 | get up, not go anywhere. |
| 00:23:36 | How do you do that? |
| 00:23:38 | Do you have a series of belts that you wrap |
| 00:23:40 | around and you don't let yourself up? |
| 00:23:42 | >>No, but I have heard of people doing that. |
| 00:23:45 | Have someone tie them in a chair. |
| 00:23:46 | >>Are you serious? |
| 00:23:50 | >>Usually a writing period is, for me, four to |
| 00:23:56 | |
| 00:23:57 | five hours most times and I've got enough |
| 00:24:03 | |
| 00:24:03 | self-discipline that I can sit there for four or |
| 00:24:06 | five hours even if nothing is going on, |
| 00:24:09 | and there are plenty of days where |
| 00:24:11 | there is nothing going on. |
| 00:24:14 | I also know that if I don't sit there really |
| 00:24:19 | there isn't anything that's going to go on. |
| 00:24:22 | I have to sit there at least for a |
| 00:24:26 | fairly good amount of time. |
| 00:24:32 | >>The pure mechanics of this now. |
| 00:24:36 | Do you have a sign saying "Do Not Disturb" |
| 00:24:38 | and you're up in the attic and |
| 00:24:40 | everybody knows to leave you alone. |
| 00:24:42 | I'm curious as to how that works out. |
| 00:24:44 | >>Oh yeah. |
| 00:24:45 | >>So you've got that authenticity now. |
| 00:24:46 | You've got those two books you're like |
| 00:24:48 | "I'm going upstairs for my four hours. |
| 00:24:50 | I'll be down to have lunch." |
| 00:24:52 | >>That's pretty much it. There's no cell phone. |
| 00:24:54 | There's no Internet. There's nothing up there. |
| 00:24:56 | >>So do you write long hand or computer? |
| 00:24:58 | >>No, I have a computer up there, |
| 00:25:00 | but its not hooked up to the net. |
| 00:25:02 | >>It's death for a writer to have the Internet? |
| 00:25:03 | >>Yes, I believe that. |
| 00:25:06 | >>What are you working on now? |
| 00:25:08 | >>I'm working on another novel. |
| 00:25:10 | I don't really want to say too much about it. |
| 00:25:13 | I can tell you this: it's set in the early 1980's |
| 00:25:16 | in Mead, Ohio, near Chillicothe. |
| 00:25:21 | That's about it right now. |
| 00:25:23 | That's all I want to talk about. |
| 00:25:25 | >>Alright. |
| 00:25:28 | How long have you been working on that? |
| 00:25:30 | >>Probably four or five months. |
| 00:25:33 | Now the last month hasn't been good. |
| 00:25:35 | I really haven't gotten any work done, |
| 00:25:38 | just a lot of stuff with the book |
| 00:25:40 | and I get easily distracted. |
| 00:25:42 | Really for the last month it has |
| 00:25:44 | really been sitting on the porch talking |
| 00:25:48 | to the stray cats, that sort of thing. |
| 00:25:50 | Not working. |
| 00:25:55 | >>Have they started talking back? |
| 00:25:57 | >>In their own special way I guess. |
| 00:25:58 | >>What's your method when you're teaching? |
| 00:26:00 | I know you're an MFA, but I'm pretty sure you |
| 00:26:02 | taught. |
| 00:26:05 | >>I taught at OSU when I was in grad school. |
| 00:26:08 | |
| 00:26:09 | >>So how do you turn the corner on that |
| 00:26:10 | and say what will work for me as a writer? |
| 00:26:12 | How do you communicate that to other people? |
| 00:26:15 | >>Well, I'm not teaching now, ok. |
| 00:26:18 | Part of that is that when I went to grad school |
| 00:26:20 | I had this idea that ok, I'll go to grad school. |
| 00:26:24 | I left my job that I had been at for years |
| 00:26:26 | and I will try to write a book. |
| 00:26:29 | I'll get a nice job at a college |
| 00:26:32 | teaching and that will be it. |
| 00:26:35 | Unfortunately I discovered that |
| 00:26:38 | I wasn't a really good teacher. |
| 00:26:43 | I didn't have the confidence that it takes. |
| 00:26:47 | To teach, you have to at least think |
| 00:26:49 | that you know what you're |
| 00:26:52 | talking about and I don't have that. |
| 00:26:58 | For me, I was ok if it was a weeklong workshop or |
| 00:27:02 | something like that, but after about a week I run |
| 00:27:05 | out of things to say because there really |
| 00:27:08 | are only so many things you can say. |
| 00:27:12 | Like a creative writing class, it really comes |
| 00:27:15 | down to you either do the work |
| 00:27:16 | or you don't do it. |
| 00:27:20 | We can workshop the stories and critique them |
| 00:27:23 | and try to guide a person as far as this is |
| 00:27:29 | |
| 00:27:31 | nice and you shouldn't have done this, |
| 00:27:36 | something like that. I just don't have the... |
| 00:27:40 | For me, it just comes down to basics: |
| 00:27:45 | Sit in the chair, write everyday, read as |
| 00:27:50 | much as you can, and just keep working at it. |
| 00:27:55 | >>That's what led you to just |
| 00:27:57 | tie the kids to the chairs. |
| 00:27:59 | That was the problem? |
| 00:28:01 | >>Yes. |
| 00:28:03 | >>You're going to sit here and |
| 00:28:05 | write the whole time. |
| 00:28:07 | >>Most of the classes that I had you'd |
| 00:28:09 | have to tie the kids to the chairs I think. |
| 00:28:11 | >>Alright, well that's good advice |
| 00:28:13 | and in no way am I endorsing that. |
| 00:28:15 | I want to be very, very clear. |
| 00:28:17 | But Donald Ray Pollock, I thank you very much for |
| 00:28:21 | being here today on Writers Talk with your new |
| 00:28:24 | book The Devil All the Time, and you've got |
| 00:28:27 | Knockemstiff and one coming out that you won't |
| 00:28:29 | tell us anything about, but it will be out |
| 00:28:31 | sometime in the future. |
| 00:28:33 | >>It will be awhile, yes. |
| 00:28:35 | >>Well thank you very much. |
| 00:28:36 | >>Thank you, Doug. Thanks for having me on. |
| 00:28:38 | From the Center for the Study and the |
| 00:28:39 | Teaching of Writing at The Ohio State University, |
| 00:28:40 | this is Doug Dangler. Keep writing. |
Note : Transcripts are compiled from uncorrected captions
