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The State of Ohio

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President Biden bows out, and Ohio Democrats back Vice President Harris. A proposed amendment to overhaul redistricting is headed to the November ballot. And a conversation about the economic growth in the Appalachian parts of the state. Mark Partridge and Nick Messenger are studio guest in the discussion first aired on December 1, 2023.

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00:00:39	President Biden bowed out
00:00:39	and Ohio Democrats back.
00:00:42	Vice President Harris,
00:00:43	a proposed amendment
00:00:43	to overhaul redistricting
00:00:45	is headed to the November
00:00:45	ballot.
00:00:48	And a conversation
00:00:48	about the economic growth
00:00:50	in the Appalachian parts
00:00:50	of the state.
00:00:52	All this week
00:00:52	in the state of Ohio. Oh.
00:01:13	Welcome to the state of Ohio.
00:01:15	I'm Sarah
00:01:15	Donaldson in for Karen Kasler.
00:01:18	Ohio's delegation
00:01:18	for the Democratic
00:01:20	National Convention
00:01:20	voted this week
00:01:22	to pledge its votes to Vice
00:01:22	President Kamala Harris
00:01:25	after President
00:01:25	Joe Biden ended his reelection
00:01:25	bid and endorsed her.
00:01:29	Of the thousands of delegates
00:01:29	heading to the DNC in Chicago
00:01:32	next month, about 150,
00:01:32	give or take, are from Ohio.
00:01:36	They say unanimously
00:01:36	they'll vote for Harris.
00:01:39	That news came as Harris
00:01:39	secured
00:01:41	the necessary number
00:01:41	of pledged votes
00:01:43	across the country to become
00:01:43	the nominee next month.
00:01:45	But Democratic State
00:01:45	Senator Bill dmorris says
00:01:48	every delegate
00:01:49	essentially
00:01:49	became a free agent
00:01:50	following
00:01:50	Biden's announcement.
00:01:53	No delegate from Ohio
00:01:53	or otherwise, is bound to vote
00:01:56	for Harris
00:01:56	come convention time.
00:01:58	Still, waves of Democrats
00:01:58	across the country,
00:02:00	including elected officials
00:02:00	at every level of government,
00:02:03	rallied behind Harris
00:02:03	starting Sunday afternoon.
00:02:07	Some of Ohio's youngest
00:02:07	delegates
00:02:08	say they're feeling energized.
00:02:10	I almost have to laugh
00:02:12	because it is just knowing
00:02:12	that if I'm being completely
00:02:15	honest, I.
00:02:16	I wish I could have said that
00:02:18	we were as enthusiastic
00:02:18	about, a rematch between
00:02:23	President Joe Biden and
00:02:23	Donald Trump as we are now.
00:02:25	But it would be a lie.
00:02:26	Ethan Nichols and Patrick
00:02:28	Houlihan
00:02:28	are both in their early 20s
00:02:30	and from the greater
00:02:30	Cincinnati region.
00:02:32	They're serving as first time
00:02:32	delegates at the DNC.
00:02:35	Nichols voiced his vote
00:02:36	for Harris minutes after Biden
00:02:36	withdrew.
00:02:39	have nothing against
00:02:39	an open convention.
00:02:40	I think that would be
00:02:41	incredibly healthy
00:02:41	for our party.
00:02:43	But at the same time,
00:02:43	I do believe
00:02:43	that as as delegates
00:02:45	and as, as a party
00:02:45	and as voters,
00:02:47	we do need to coalesce
00:02:47	behind the vice president.
00:02:50	Houlihan was still thinking it
00:02:50	over Monday morning.
00:02:53	By the evening,
00:02:54	he said he would cast
00:02:54	his ballot for Harris,
00:02:56	calling her
00:02:56	the Democrats best shot.
00:02:57	But the curveballs
00:02:57	have created some nerves.
00:03:00	was a pledged delegate.
00:03:02	I didn't have to really worry
00:03:02	much about the convention
00:03:06	because I was going
00:03:06	to go there
00:03:08	and nominate the Biden-Harris
00:03:08	ticket and
00:03:12	engage in the festivities.
00:03:15	I'm still going to be engaging
00:03:15	in the festivities,
00:03:18	In more recent history,
00:03:19	conventions
00:03:19	have been largely ceremonial,
00:03:21	with each party's
00:03:22	nominee often
00:03:23	decided earlier in the primary
00:03:23	election season.
00:03:26	But Ohio's delegates commended
00:03:26	Biden for bowing out.
00:03:29	And for him to step aside
00:03:31	and say he knows
00:03:31	that the vice president
00:03:33	is extremely qualified
00:03:33	and ready to take on this,
00:03:37	not only this tough campaign,
00:03:39	but also
00:03:40	the incredibly important job
00:03:41	of being the leader
00:03:41	of the free world means a lot.
00:03:44	Ohio political scientists
00:03:44	tell us it's unlikely Biden's
00:03:48	exit would swing Ohio
00:03:48	in the Democrats favor
00:03:50	when it comes
00:03:50	to the presidential race.
00:03:52	But they say the shift
00:03:52	could boost Democratic U.S.
00:03:55	Senator Sherrod Brown
00:03:55	in his tough reelection
00:03:57	bid against Republican
00:03:57	opponent Bernie Marino
00:04:00	by bringing out Democrats
00:04:00	who were not excited
00:04:02	about a rematch between Biden
00:04:04	and former President
00:04:04	Donald Trump.
00:04:07	It's official.
00:04:08	When Ohio voters
00:04:08	go to the polls this fall,
00:04:10	they will decide
00:04:10	whether to pass an anti
00:04:12	gerrymandering
00:04:12	constitution amendment,
00:04:14	retooling the way the state
00:04:14	draws its political districts.
00:04:18	Secretary of state
00:04:18	Frank Larose said
00:04:19	Tuesday the coalition behind
00:04:19	its citizens, not politicians,
00:04:23	submitted enough signatures
00:04:23	to make the 2024 ballot.
00:04:27	It takes months
00:04:27	and lots of money
00:04:28	to mount a successful effort
00:04:28	to make the ballot in Ohio.
00:04:32	About three weeks ago,
00:04:32	citizens, not politicians,
00:04:34	delivered more than 730,000
00:04:34	signatures to LA office.
00:04:39	That's almost double
00:04:39	the more than
00:04:40	414,000 valid signatures
00:04:40	they needed to qualify.
00:04:45	Paid circulators
00:04:45	and volunteers have been out
00:04:47	getting them at events like
00:04:47	farmers markets and festivals.
00:04:50	And by going door to door,
00:04:51	the paper
00:04:51	petitions were stacked high
00:04:53	in more than one U-Haul truck
00:04:53	at La Rosa's office
00:04:56	after delivery. County
00:04:58	by county Board of Elections
00:04:58	staffers across Ohio.
00:05:01	Some seasonal validated stacks
00:05:01	and stacks by hand.
00:05:04	Cuyahoga County
00:05:05	hired more than 50 signature
00:05:05	verification
00:05:08	and quality assurance staffers
00:05:08	this year
00:05:10	to prepare for the citizens,
00:05:10	not politicians petitions.
00:05:13	The elevator pitch
00:05:14	for the proposed
00:05:14	amendment is to throw out
00:05:17	the current
00:05:17	redistricting process
00:05:18	under citizens,
00:05:18	not politicians proposal.
00:05:21	The state would establish
00:05:22	an independent commission of
00:05:22	15 members, five Republicans,
00:05:26	five Democrats
00:05:26	and five independents.
00:05:28	It's a bipartisan effort, in
00:05:29	part led by former Ohio Chief
00:05:29	Justice Maureen O'Connor.
00:05:33	A federal court
00:05:34	has granted an injunction
00:05:36	against a state
00:05:36	provision in the 2023 law
00:05:36	that limits who can assist
00:05:40	Ohioans when they cast
00:05:40	absentee ballots.
00:05:43	The League of Women Voters
00:05:43	of Ohio and American Civil
00:05:45	Liberties Union first filed
00:05:45	the lawsuit last year, arguing
00:05:49	it was discriminatory against
00:05:49	Ohio's disabled population.
00:05:53	And this week, the Ohio
00:05:53	Eastern Division
00:05:55	District Court
00:05:55	blocked the state
00:05:57	from enforcing
00:05:57	that part of the law,
00:05:58	which only allows authorized
00:05:58	individuals
00:06:01	to handle absentee ballots
00:06:01	on another voter's behalf,
00:06:04	including
00:06:04	by returning a signed
00:06:06	and sealed ballot
00:06:06	to a Board of Elections.
00:06:08	Grandchildren, cousins
00:06:08	and non familial caregivers
00:06:11	are all excluded
00:06:11	from that list.
00:06:14	The Ohio League's
00:06:14	executive director, Jen
00:06:16	Miller, says
00:06:16	without the court action, many
00:06:18	who would ordinarily assist
00:06:18	a voter with disabilities
00:06:21	could have been hit
00:06:21	with felony charges.
00:06:23	We know that a lot of voters
00:06:23	are challenged with
00:06:27	just reaching the mailbox,
00:06:27	sealing the envelope,
00:06:30	or getting it to the one
00:06:30	county drop box.
00:06:33	The court says the law
00:06:33	violated federal provisions
00:06:36	that protect Americans
00:06:36	who are disabled.
00:06:37	The state, which is defending
00:06:37	the law,
00:06:39	could appeal the ruling.
00:06:42	Ohio's unemployment rate was
00:06:43	4.2% in
00:06:43	May 2024, up from 4% in April.
00:06:48	That's almost the same
00:06:48	as the nation's jobless
00:06:50	rate of 4.1%, and it's off
00:06:50	from Ohio's all time record
00:06:54	low for unemployment of 3.3%,
00:06:54	set last July.
00:06:58	Meggs and Jefferson
00:06:58	counties are tied
00:06:59	for the highest jobless rates
00:06:59	among Ohio's 80 counties,
00:07:03	and nearly all the counties
00:07:03	with the highest unemployment
00:07:05	numbers are in Appalachian
00:07:05	Ohio.
00:07:08	Researchers at Ohio state
00:07:08	University.
00:07:10	Swank program
00:07:10	in rural urban policy.
00:07:13	And the Ohio River
00:07:13	Valley Institute
00:07:15	say they've seen a way
00:07:15	that rural communities,
00:07:17	particularly
00:07:17	those in Appalachian Ohio,
00:07:20	can revive their economies
00:07:20	with growth,
00:07:22	not just projects
00:07:23	that can be subject to boom
00:07:23	and bust cycles.
00:07:26	Their findings are summarized
00:07:26	in a report
00:07:28	called A Bigger Bang Approach
00:07:29	to Economic Development
00:07:29	and Application
00:07:32	to Rural Appalachian Ohio
00:07:32	Energy Boomtowns.
00:07:35	It centers on the coal
00:07:36	mining town of Centralia
00:07:36	between Tacoma,
00:07:39	Washington and Portland,
00:07:39	Oregon.
00:07:41	The mine's owner
00:07:42	announced in 2006
00:07:42	it would be closed by 2025,
00:07:45	affecting about
00:07:45	a thousand jobs
00:07:47	in an area of around
00:07:47	15,000 people.
00:07:50	But the mine owner agreed
00:07:50	to set up a $55 million fund,
00:07:54	with the money
00:07:54	going into three categories
00:07:56	energy efficiency
00:07:56	and weatherization, economic
00:07:59	and community
00:08:00	development, and clean energy
00:08:00	technology investments.
00:08:03	Centralia saw a big turnaround
00:08:03	after that.
00:08:06	My colleague Karen Kasler,
00:08:06	sat down with the report's
00:08:08	authors in December
00:08:08	and asked them
00:08:10	why something similar
00:08:11	could work in Ohio,
00:08:11	a long way from Washington.
00:08:14	The report centers
00:08:14	on the coal mine
00:08:16	town of Centralia
00:08:16	between Tacoma,
00:08:18	Washington, and Portland,
00:08:18	Oregon.
00:08:19	The mine's owner
00:08:19	announced in 2006
00:08:22	that the mine would close
00:08:23	by 2025,
00:08:24	affecting around
00:08:24	a thousand jobs in an area
00:08:24	of about 15,000 people.
00:08:27	The mine owner agreed
00:08:27	to set up
00:08:29	a $55 million fund, with money
00:08:29	going into three categories
00:08:32	energy efficiency
00:08:32	and weatherization.
00:08:34	Economic and community
00:08:34	development, and clean energy.
00:08:36	Technology
00:08:36	investments in Centralia
00:08:38	had a big turnaround
00:08:38	after that.
00:08:40	So, Mark, I want to ask you,
00:08:41	why do you think that is
00:08:41	and why do you think something
00:08:44	like that could work in Ohio,
00:08:44	which is not Washington?
00:08:47	Well, what they did
00:08:47	was, rather
00:08:50	it was a rather remarkable
00:08:50	turnaround.
00:08:52	If you look at the data
00:08:52	and where it was,
00:08:54	where you really see it
00:08:54	is it created
00:08:57	a lot of small businesses
00:08:57	and existing
00:09:00	small businesses
00:09:00	hired more workers,
00:09:03	and in particular,
00:09:03	in construction.
00:09:04	There was just a
00:09:04	a wave of construction.
00:09:06	And that came from the energy
00:09:06	efficiency investment.
00:09:09	So there was a double
00:09:09	or triple dividend there.
00:09:11	That one they got, the,
00:09:11	the jobs created
00:09:15	for the energy efficiency.
00:09:17	Two, they got the double
00:09:17	dividend of people
00:09:19	saving money
00:09:19	on their energy bills.
00:09:21	And then three,
00:09:21	they were doing something
00:09:23	that was
00:09:23	environmentally friendly.
00:09:24	So let me ask you, Nick,
00:09:24	you're sure it was these
00:09:28	three, parts of this,
00:09:28	$55 million investment
00:09:32	and not something else
00:09:32	that created this boom.
00:09:35	Yeah.
00:09:35	So when you look at the data,
00:09:35	there's a correlation.
00:09:38	But our job, and the research
00:09:38	we do as economists
00:09:41	is to try to dig
00:09:41	a little deeper than that
00:09:42	correlation
00:09:42	and get towards causation.
00:09:45	and one of the things
00:09:45	that we did in
00:09:47	our study
00:09:47	is we actually constructed,
00:09:50	an algorithm that built
00:09:51	a counterfactual Centralia,
00:09:51	Washington.
00:09:54	And so we actually looked
00:09:55	at the other 38 counties
00:09:55	in Washington,
00:09:57	across about 40 or so
00:09:57	variables about their economy,
00:10:01	their geography,
00:10:01	their demographics,
00:10:03	and, and weighted
00:10:03	each of those things
00:10:05	to try to essentially build
00:10:05	a, counterfactual Centralia.
00:10:09	Right.
00:10:10	Like a treatment and control
00:10:10	and a drug trial,
00:10:12	that they might use
00:10:12	in pharmaceuticals.
00:10:14	And what we find is that
00:10:16	when these grants start
00:10:16	rolling out what we expect
00:10:19	to happen in Centralia
00:10:19	and what actually happened,
00:10:21	Centralia diverge almost
00:10:21	in that exact year, in 2016.
00:10:25	So these grants
00:10:25	start hitting shovels,
00:10:27	and you actually start seeing
00:10:27	that before that 2013 1415.
00:10:31	They're moving perfectly
00:10:31	together.
00:10:33	2016 boom.
00:10:34	The real Centralia
00:10:34	where the money hits
00:10:36	shovels, starts performing
00:10:36	better economically.
00:10:39	It starts having a better job
00:10:39	growth.
00:10:41	It starts having better
00:10:41	personal income growth.
00:10:43	And as Mark mentioned,
00:10:44	the real the real kicker
00:10:44	is that it's, you
00:10:47	see, this huge divergence in,
00:10:49	small business,
00:10:49	you know, self-employment
00:10:51	income where businesses start
00:10:51	actually, doing this work.
00:10:55	Now, Mark,
00:10:55	you said in a webinar
00:10:56	about this report that
00:10:56	Centralia moved away from coal
00:10:59	and the underlying supply
00:10:59	chain to the power plant
00:11:02	was also there.
00:11:03	But in Ohio,
00:11:03	Appalachia has doubled down
00:11:06	on the oil and gas boom.
00:11:08	We've seen that in the shale
00:11:09	development in eastern Ohio
00:11:09	and most recently in fracking.
00:11:12	Being allowed on state lands
00:11:12	and in some state parks.
00:11:15	And there's also this
00:11:15	continued investment into this
00:11:19	cracker that's been talked
00:11:19	about for Belmont County
00:11:21	since at least 2018
00:11:21	that I can remember.
00:11:24	So and the state spent
00:11:24	$70 million
00:11:27	on that cracker already.
00:11:28	So why
00:11:28	two different approaches here?
00:11:31	Why is Ohio
00:11:32	invested in this approach
00:11:32	when there's another approach?
00:11:36	Well, I think I think you're
00:11:36	raised a really good question.
00:11:39	The oil and gas boom,
00:11:40	you know,
00:11:40	despite all the hype,
00:11:41	if you look at the population
00:11:41	growth in the main
00:11:44	counties over a fact
00:11:44	they actually lost people
00:11:47	and they actually lost
00:11:47	more people
00:11:49	in the decade of the oil boom
00:11:50	than they did
00:11:50	in the previous decade.
00:11:52	So it's not been a great job.
00:11:54	Economic growth contributor.
00:11:56	So what's different about this
00:11:56	is it relies on the local,
00:12:00	people who rely relies
00:12:00	on the local citizens.
00:12:03	It requires entrepreneurship
00:12:03	and small businesses
00:12:06	starting up.
00:12:07	And and the one of the nice
00:12:07	things about small businesses
00:12:10	as opposed to a large
00:12:10	corporation is the money
00:12:13	stays local. In other words,
00:12:13	the profits stay local.
00:12:16	Also, small businesses
00:12:17	tend to hire more workers
00:12:17	the more labor intensive
00:12:20	kinds of jobs.
00:12:21	So there's there's
00:12:21	more workers involved.
00:12:23	And and then also,
00:12:23	small businesses
00:12:26	tend to buy a source
00:12:26	or inputs locally.
00:12:29	So they're buying
00:12:29	locally for their inputs.
00:12:31	And so you get a much bigger
00:12:31	bank for small businesses
00:12:34	than you do
00:12:34	from large companies
00:12:35	where a lot of that economic
00:12:35	development just trickles out.
00:12:39	And when companies leave
00:12:39	and there's this big vacuum
00:12:42	in communities,
00:12:44	the thinking has been to go
00:12:44	try to find something similar
00:12:48	to replace
00:12:48	that a manufacturer,
00:12:49	and you go out and try to not
00:12:50	find another manufacturer
00:12:50	to replace that.
00:12:53	but that can
00:12:53	that sometimes doesn't work
00:12:56	as you kind of described
00:12:56	in this report.
00:12:58	Right, Nick. Right.
00:12:59	you end up in, in what
00:13:01	economists really term
00:13:02	a race to the bottom
00:13:02	in those types of situations
00:13:04	where,
00:13:04	you kind of get into a panic.
00:13:06	The traditional
00:13:06	thinking has been, well,
00:13:07	we need to recruit
00:13:08	a new a new company to come in
00:13:08	and save these jobs.
00:13:11	How do you recruit
00:13:11	a new company?
00:13:13	Well,
00:13:13	we'll offer tax incentives,
00:13:14	so we'll give property
00:13:14	tax exemptions.
00:13:16	We'll give income
00:13:16	tax exemptions,
00:13:18	and we'll try to be
00:13:18	a attractive spot
00:13:20	for a new company to come in
00:13:22	and build a factory
00:13:22	or replace the old one.
00:13:24	but the problem is
00:13:24	everybody's doing that.
00:13:26	And so if
00:13:27	you're a county in Ohio,
00:13:27	you're not only competing
00:13:29	against
00:13:29	other counties in Ohio,
00:13:30	but you're
00:13:31	also competing against
00:13:31	counties in Pennsylvania,
00:13:33	in West Virginia and Tennessee
00:13:34	and Kentucky for these types
00:13:34	of, of of investment.
00:13:37	and so what you end up with
00:13:37	is a lot of situations
00:13:40	where the community has lost
00:13:40	more tax revenue
00:13:43	than economic benefit
00:13:43	that it's gained
00:13:45	from bringing in a new firm
00:13:45	with new jobs
00:13:48	and the clean energy or energy
00:13:48	tax transition.
00:13:52	Part of this grant program
00:13:52	had a lot of matching
00:13:55	investments
00:13:55	coming in from corporations
00:13:57	from the state of Washington
00:13:57	itself.
00:13:58	Coal is king and was king
00:13:58	in southeast Ohio.
00:14:01	Those residents
00:14:01	and some politicians,
00:14:03	many of whom were Republicans,
00:14:05	aren't necessarily convinced
00:14:06	that energy
00:14:06	efficiency programs
00:14:09	and these
00:14:09	things are the way to go.
00:14:11	So how do you convince them
00:14:11	with just this example
00:14:14	from just one town?
00:14:15	Well, I think I think
00:14:17	one of the things
00:14:17	they have to look at is,
00:14:19	is, is what they're doing.
00:14:20	Is it working
00:14:20	because they've been trying
00:14:21	the same strategy
00:14:21	over and over again.
00:14:23	And and it hasn't
00:14:23	really worked.
00:14:25	And if you mentioned coal,
00:14:25	I think we're down to around
00:14:28	400 jobs is all that's left.
00:14:29	And coal in Ohio
00:14:29	in terms of coal.
00:14:32	so what
00:14:32	what's different about this
00:14:35	is that, it doesn't take
00:14:35	a large investment,
00:14:38	you know, you know,
00:14:40	you talk about
00:14:40	the Intel plant, for example.
00:14:42	You know,
00:14:42	there was billions of dollars,
00:14:44	millions, billions of dollars
00:14:44	in incentives.
00:14:46	You know, we're talking about
00:14:47	tens of millions of dollars
00:14:47	in terms of
00:14:49	and that stays locally.
00:14:51	You know, it doesn't
00:14:51	go to some corporation.
00:14:53	And, the other feature is,
00:14:53	is that it relies on,
00:14:56	you know,
00:14:56	something that I would think
00:14:57	Republicans would appreciate
00:14:59	is small businesses
00:14:59	in small business development
00:15:02	and entrepreneurship.
00:15:03	And so I think that's
00:15:03	something
00:15:04	that Republicans
00:15:04	could gather around.
00:15:06	the one advantage
00:15:08	that clean energy has over
00:15:08	brown energy, I should mention
00:15:10	is it's it's something
00:15:10	that's going to be growing.
00:15:13	By contrast, manufacturing,
00:15:13	due to a lot of reasons,
00:15:16	productivity growth
00:15:16	is going to be shrinking.
00:15:18	So if you're trying to get
00:15:18	a bigger piece
00:15:20	of a shrinking pie,
00:15:21	you're not going to get a lot
00:15:21	where with clean
00:15:23	tech, you're going to
00:15:23	you know, it's a growing pie.
00:15:25	And I think a lot of times
00:15:25	we focus on big companies,
00:15:29	lots of jobs
00:15:29	rather than smaller companies
00:15:32	where you only have
00:15:32	ten, 20, 50, whatever jobs.
00:15:34	But in some of these
00:15:34	industries, as technology
00:15:38	improves, the number of people
00:15:38	who are needed
00:15:41	actually
00:15:41	does not grow like it used to.
00:15:43	Right.
00:15:43	And I'll give you an example.
00:15:46	You brought up the ethane
00:15:46	cracker plant.
00:15:48	they opened one recently
00:15:48	in Beaver County,
00:15:50	Pennsylvania,
00:15:50	and even the direct jobs
00:15:52	estimates
00:15:52	from that facility are lower
00:15:54	than they were projected
00:15:54	back in 2012.
00:15:56	Because you've seen
00:15:56	advancement and automation
00:15:58	take over even in
00:15:58	just the last 8 or 9 years.
00:16:01	and so I think what we are
00:16:01	thinking about in this report
00:16:04	and what the results show,
00:16:05	is that the secret
00:16:05	not only small business,
00:16:07	but diversification,
00:16:09	is that if you
00:16:09	put all of your economic eggs
00:16:09	in one basket,
00:16:12	and then something happens
00:16:14	where automation comes over,
00:16:14	you need a lot fewer workers.
00:16:16	Suddenly
00:16:16	you're kind of up the creek
00:16:18	without a paddle,
00:16:18	so to speak, right at versus
00:16:20	if you have made,
00:16:21	smaller investments
00:16:21	in a diverse collection
00:16:24	of industries and businesses
00:16:24	locally, then you're much more
00:16:27	resistant to global changes
00:16:27	in marketplaces
00:16:30	and resistant to automation
00:16:30	and technological shifts.
00:16:33	And so, when we think about
00:16:33	coal or natural gas, right?
00:16:37	Coal has been affected by this
00:16:37	shift towards natural gas.
00:16:40	And now natural gas
00:16:41	is being impacted by events
00:16:41	in the Ukraine
00:16:44	and other places
00:16:44	around the world.
00:16:45	And that has ripple effects
00:16:47	and small communities
00:16:47	here in Ohio.
00:16:49	And so when you diversify,
00:16:51	you don't necessarily
00:16:51	get those same big shifts.
00:16:54	When something major happens
00:16:54	in one market in the world.
00:16:57	One of the other things
00:16:57	you talk about in
00:16:58	this report is quality of life
00:16:58	being an issue.
00:17:00	To try to bring in companies
00:17:02	and people
00:17:02	and that sort of thing.
00:17:04	Appalachian
00:17:04	Ohio has been exploited
00:17:06	through the boom bust cycle
00:17:07	over decades of companies
00:17:07	coming in and then leaving.
00:17:10	So, Mark,
00:17:10	you talked in that webinar
00:17:12	about changing attitudes
00:17:12	in the community
00:17:15	and trying to encourage
00:17:15	investment that way.
00:17:17	How do you do that
00:17:17	when you're dealing
00:17:18	with people
00:17:18	who've been there, done
00:17:20	that, seen it all before.
00:17:21	They don't trust
00:17:23	that this is going to be
00:17:23	the solution, right?
00:17:25	You mean you're exactly right.
00:17:27	They've heard so many
00:17:27	solutions that haven't worked.
00:17:29	And you know, there's reason
00:17:29	to be skeptical.
00:17:32	However, with this,
00:17:34	I think that the,
00:17:35	the big the big difference
00:17:35	is that,
00:17:38	with the diversification
00:17:38	that Nick was talking about
00:17:41	with, the fact that,
00:17:41	I and other research
00:17:44	development
00:17:44	we've done, small business
00:17:46	creates about twice
00:17:46	as many extra jobs,
00:17:49	spillover jobs than you get in
00:17:49	from large businesses.
00:17:53	this is something that
00:17:53	that can work.
00:17:55	And in terms of the attitude,
00:17:57	the psychology
00:17:57	you're talking about
00:17:58	is that
00:17:59	when when you're
00:17:59	declining place,
00:18:00	one of the things
00:18:01	that's really hurting them
00:18:01	is everybody's saying,
00:18:04	this place
00:18:04	isn't going anywhere.
00:18:06	Why should I invest here?
00:18:06	Why should I stay here?
00:18:09	Likewise,
00:18:09	outsiders are saying,
00:18:10	why would I want to go there
00:18:10	if the
00:18:12	if the place is in decline?
00:18:14	So by changing the attitudes
00:18:14	like they did in Centralia,
00:18:16	when they saw
00:18:16	this thing was working,
00:18:18	all of a sudden
00:18:18	this place is growing.
00:18:21	We can invest here.
00:18:22	We can I can stay here.
00:18:24	You know that once
00:18:24	that psychology turns around,
00:18:24	that's when a place can,
00:18:28	you know, sustainably
00:18:28	be and economic growth.
00:18:31	And what are the things
00:18:31	that can come along with that?
00:18:34	I mean,
00:18:34	quality of life issues.
00:18:35	what are some other things
00:18:35	that can come with that
00:18:39	besides just a single company
00:18:39	starting up?
00:18:42	Right.
00:18:42	Well, I think Mark
00:18:42	kind of touched on it earlier,
00:18:44	but when you have places that,
00:18:44	like Southeast Ohio,
00:18:47	where you have
00:18:47	beautiful geography,
00:18:49	you have really,
00:18:49	you have the potential
00:18:51	for some really vibrant
00:18:51	comeback communities, right?
00:18:53	If you've driven through
00:18:54	some of the downtowns
00:18:54	in these in these, places.
00:18:57	And so when you start
00:18:57	attracting population growth,
00:19:00	that's really an indicator
00:19:00	of economic growth.
00:19:02	So it's
00:19:02	not just about having jobs,
00:19:02	but it's about, building up
00:19:05	an area of the state
00:19:05	that is beautiful,
00:19:08	that has a lot of pride
00:19:08	in its history
00:19:10	and attracting people there.
00:19:12	And I think that there's
00:19:12	also a lot of opportunity.
00:19:14	You mentioned technology,
00:19:15	as remote work becomes more
00:19:15	and more of a thing
00:19:18	across the country,
00:19:18	you have the potential
00:19:20	to really attract workers
00:19:20	to places that are high
00:19:24	and quality of life.
00:19:25	They have clean environments,
00:19:25	they have vibrant downtowns,
00:19:28	don't you?
00:19:29	Don't have to be a large city
00:19:29	to have a vibrant downtown.
00:19:31	You have some of those
00:19:31	amenities
00:19:32	local businesses,
00:19:32	local restaurants.
00:19:35	You have outdoor
00:19:35	entertainment, great
00:19:36	hiking, great.
00:19:37	You know,
00:19:38	nature and low cost of living
00:19:38	and low cost of living.
00:19:41	So, you know, it's a much,
00:19:42	much more affordable,
00:19:42	in terms of living costs.
00:19:44	And so you can attract people.
00:19:46	And when you attract people,
00:19:46	you can grow your population.
00:19:48	And that's usually a a key
00:19:48	to, part of the recipe for,
00:19:52	for economic recovery.
00:19:54	And if I can, if I may. Yeah.
00:19:55	Just if I may, just to add
00:19:55	to that, the western U.S.,
00:20:00	the Rocky Mountain areas
00:20:02	was a very similar economy
00:20:02	boom, bust,
00:20:04	relying on timber mining,
00:20:06	you know,
00:20:06	the same kind of industries
00:20:08	you see in Appalachia.
00:20:09	And they went through
00:20:09	the transition earlier.
00:20:12	They were for
00:20:12	they were forced to by various
00:20:14	environmental regulations
00:20:14	and so forth.
00:20:16	So they're forced
00:20:16	to go through this.
00:20:18	And, you know,
00:20:18	the very unhappy,
00:20:19	you could see why
00:20:19	they were losing their jobs.
00:20:21	However. Very nice place.
00:20:23	It turned around because
00:20:23	of a quality of life issue.
00:20:26	You know, the quality of life
00:20:26	was very high.
00:20:28	People started moving there.
00:20:30	And why,
00:20:30	you know, the question
00:20:32	is, why can't Appalachia
00:20:32	also do that?
00:20:34	I think there's a big obstacle
00:20:34	in Appalachia
00:20:35	in that broadband
00:20:35	is still not as available.
00:20:38	There's still big pockets
00:20:38	of the state
00:20:40	that don't have broadband
00:20:40	like it is in the major
00:20:44	urban centers. And that hurts.
00:20:44	Yeah, definitely.
00:20:46	And I think we've seen,
00:20:46	both Republicans and Democrats
00:20:49	in the last 4 or 5 years
00:20:50	make big commitments
00:20:50	and investments and hopefully,
00:20:53	all of that comes to fruition
00:20:54	and the money
00:20:54	actually goes out
00:20:56	and helps install broadband
00:20:56	into these communities.
00:20:58	It is challenging
00:20:58	in Appalachia
00:21:00	because of the geography
00:21:00	and the mountainous terrain.
00:21:02	But, you know, we've done
00:21:02	some research on that as well.
00:21:04	And there are a lot of dollars
00:21:06	being invested in broadband,
00:21:07	and I think that kind of goes
00:21:07	hand in hand
00:21:09	with what I mentioned
00:21:09	with remote work
00:21:11	and what I mentioned
00:21:11	with, the quality of life,
00:21:13	having access to, to
00:21:13	the global marketplace
00:21:16	will be big there, too.
00:21:17	One of the other
00:21:18	conclusions of this report
00:21:18	is economic
00:21:20	growth
00:21:20	and economic development
00:21:22	are two different things that,
00:21:22	there's that boom and bust
00:21:25	and just because you have
00:21:25	economic development
00:21:27	doesn't mean you're going
00:21:27	to have economic growth.
00:21:29	And so how do you make sure
00:21:29	that people think
00:21:33	that this is something
00:21:33	that translates?
00:21:34	This is just one town
00:21:34	that you looked at.
00:21:36	How does it
00:21:37	how are you certain
00:21:37	that this does translate
00:21:39	throughout different areas,
00:21:39	not just Appalachian Ohio,
00:21:42	but maybe other parts
00:21:42	of the state,
00:21:43	other parts of the country?
00:21:43	Oh for sure.
00:21:46	This is the kind of thing
00:21:46	that could work, anywhere.
00:21:48	You know, it
00:21:49	relies on an entrepreneurial
00:21:49	climate and small towns.
00:21:53	And so this is not something
00:21:53	that, is specific
00:21:57	to Centralia, Washington.
00:21:58	Also, you know, we
00:21:59	we did a lot of work on this
00:21:59	with Centralia.
00:22:02	And one of the things
00:22:02	that that stands out
00:22:05	is this we're talking about
00:22:05	a very similar geography.
00:22:08	We're talking about, you know,
00:22:08	a similar rural culture,
00:22:11	you know, things, you know,
00:22:11	very conservative, culture.
00:22:15	You know, I mean,
00:22:15	there are very, you know,
00:22:16	there's a lot of things
00:22:16	that are very much alike.
00:22:18	They're both on a major,
00:22:18	interstate.
00:22:22	they both have very good
00:22:22	transportation access.
00:22:24	So the think there's no reason
00:22:24	to think
00:22:27	that it can't work
00:22:27	in Appalachian,
00:22:29	because this is some sort
00:22:29	of weird special case.
00:22:32	And then, as I already
00:22:32	mentioned, you saw this
00:22:32	across the Rockies already.
00:22:36	You know, it was a different
00:22:36	kind of a transition,
00:22:38	but one that also Appalachian
00:22:38	you could participate in.
00:22:40	One of the other side
00:22:40	effects of this is
00:22:42	they could help deal
00:22:42	with some of the problems
00:22:43	that rural communities
00:22:45	have been having
00:22:45	with the opioid crisis,
00:22:46	which you've also looked into
00:22:46	as well.
00:22:48	Oh, exactly.
00:22:49	I mean, it's
00:22:49	not the only cost,
00:22:51	but one of the
00:22:51	one of the key causes is the
00:22:51	lack of economic opportunity,
00:22:55	you know, and around it
00:22:57	you have the deaths
00:22:57	of despair,
00:22:58	as what they were
00:22:58	call was suicides.
00:23:00	And and overdoses
00:23:00	and so forth.
00:23:02	And by turning around the
00:23:02	economy, it gives people hope.
00:23:06	And you see fewer,
00:23:06	opioid deaths.
00:23:08	So overdoses.
00:23:09	So this is something that
00:23:09	all around is a game changer.
00:23:12	So Nick, final word here.
00:23:14	This all sounds very positive
00:23:14	and very sunny.
00:23:17	Like just do this
00:23:17	and it'll be easy.
00:23:19	It takes a lot of time.
00:23:21	Many years
00:23:21	to see the results here.
00:23:23	How can you tell people
00:23:23	and reassure them
00:23:26	that if you hang in there
00:23:26	this is going to work?
00:23:28	Yeah, I think,
00:23:28	there's there's phases of this
00:23:31	and you see the results
00:23:31	start to happen
00:23:33	as soon as money
00:23:33	hits the shovels.
00:23:35	But you're right that it's
00:23:35	taken six, seven, eight years.
00:23:37	If you go to Centralia,
00:23:37	Washington now,
00:23:39	it looks
00:23:39	very different than it did
00:23:39	ten years ago
00:23:41	on the ground
00:23:41	in their downtown.
00:23:43	but I think
00:23:44	one of the advantages
00:23:44	is when you use local
00:23:46	labor, local businesses,
00:23:46	you start to see that impact
00:23:50	right away, as opposed to
00:23:50	if I'm investing money
00:23:53	in, you know,
00:23:53	building a fracking
00:23:55	drilling site
00:23:55	and building a pad
00:23:55	and building a road,
00:23:57	and you're not going to see
00:23:57	that impact or immediately.
00:24:00	Right?
00:24:00	You're not going to see
00:24:01	that there's
00:24:01	going to be overnight
00:24:02	some kind of change
00:24:03	in your neighbors
00:24:03	or in your community.
00:24:05	And so I think
00:24:05	one of the things that
00:24:07	that people really need to to,
00:24:09	think about as they consider
00:24:09	this approach is that,
00:24:12	as Mark said,
00:24:12	it takes less money upfront.
00:24:15	And so it's also a lower risk,
00:24:15	you know, to try to,
00:24:17	to go down this road
00:24:19	and then also it
00:24:20	because it uses local folks,
00:24:20	people
00:24:22	are going to feel the impact
00:24:22	much sooner
00:24:23	than relying on an outside
00:24:25	multinational company
00:24:25	to change economic fortunes.
00:24:28	Any final thoughts?
00:24:29	I think, my
00:24:29	my final thought is, is that,
00:24:34	we've been trying
00:24:34	the same thing
00:24:36	over and over again,
00:24:36	for the last 30 some years.
00:24:39	You look at site
00:24:40	selection magazine tracks,
00:24:40	large firm start ups.
00:24:43	Ohio has been first
00:24:43	in the country eight times.
00:24:46	I don't think we've ever been
00:24:46	below four in the last 30.
00:24:49	In other words,
00:24:49	we're really good
00:24:50	at attracting
00:24:50	manufacturing facilities.
00:24:52	Yet when you look
00:24:52	at the results,
00:24:54	it just has it
00:24:54	translated into growth.
00:24:56	And so it's time
00:24:56	for a new approach
00:25:00	that,
00:25:00	that it's not very risky
00:25:04	and has been shown
00:25:05	that could really make
00:25:05	a positive change.
00:25:07	You mentioned that Site
00:25:07	Selection magazine.
00:25:08	We've covered that
00:25:08	in the media before,
00:25:10	but there's a big difference
00:25:12	between attracting the company
00:25:12	and what happens afterwards.
00:25:15	Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
00:25:17	and I mean, you know,
00:25:17	it comes back to one of
00:25:21	those things
00:25:21	is if you're focusing
00:25:21	on a declining industry,
00:25:24	manufacturing
00:25:24	in terms of jobs,
00:25:26	you're really then trying
00:25:27	to get a bigger piece
00:25:27	of a shrinking pie,
00:25:29	and it's hard to win
00:25:29	that game.
00:25:31	The full findings are
00:25:32	available at the Ohio River
00:25:32	Valley Institute's website.
00:25:36	That's it for this week
00:25:36	for my colleagues
00:25:38	at the Statehouse News
00:25:38	Bureau of Ohio
00:25:40	Public Radio and Television.
00:25:40	Thanks for watching.
00:25:43	Please check out our website
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Note : Transcripts are compiled from uncorrected captions